Baha'i/Ananda Marga

[barefootgal9]

I believe Vaj is trying to sort this stuff out, and some of the, ahem, "information," he is running into on the internet is causing it's intended confusion.

Vaj is not alone in running into this stuff, and we are just going to have to keep on answering as patiently and as clearly as we can.

blessings & peace,

bfg

[BruceDLimber]

The Baha'i scriptures also contain this:

They [the Divine Messengers] are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences.

(The Book of Certitude, page 179)

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I don't think this is an issue that Baha'is can claim supremacy over - having altered the interpretation of various other texts held to be "God-sent Divine Revelation" by other religions.

You will forgive me, I trust, if I find this statement disingenuous.

Baha'is haven't "altered" anything: we simply have our interpretation and understanding of various scriptures, just as does everyone else!

The simple fact that our view differs from someone else's is hardly in itself objectionable, the more so given that it may in fact be our interpretation which is the correct one. . . .

We encouirage others to investigate and draw their own conclusions! I hope we will be allowed to have the same standard applied to us!

Peace,

Bruce

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


thank you for the replies.

actually, though i've seen several of the polemical sites against the Baha'i faith, i've little interest in them besides their "facts" as it were.

there are as many conspiricies as there are theoriests of said things... i reserve my opinion until such time as it is proven one way or the other in such things.

it's not all that surprising to see the Baha'i echo the patriciarchial forms that it inherited from Islam and Christianity, so that's not a big deal to me.

perhaps you are right... perhaps this is a test to see if one is a true Baha'i or not. i suspect that i'd fail this test quite thoroughly

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

I find it telling that you completely ignored everything I said and all the points I made about the nature of Baha'i administration in contrast to conventional politics, to concentrate on what Baha'is regard as two relatively minor details. . . . Perhaps there's no refutation? The facts about its success stand and are there for all to examine.

Peace,

Bruce

Namaste Bruce,

i'm not sure what you're going on about here... i've not participated much in this particular thread... and, though you consider it a trivial detail, i do not consider the exclusion of an entire gender from the body politic to be trivial. eh... perhaps it's simply a difference in perspectives.

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

it's not all that surprising to see the Baha'i echo the patriciarchial forms that it inherited from Islam and Christianity, so that's not a big deal to me.

It's just that the UHJ, while being the "Supreme" institution on matters of Baha'i law is the ONLY place in the Faith where you will find a men-only situation. Every other institution of the Faith, including the however many hundreds of National Spiritual Assemblies, Local Spiritual Assemblies, Teaching Committees, Boards of Counselllors is open to women and men both, and, as I mentioned, seem to be dominated by the women. In practice, the Faith is neither Patriarchal nor Matriarchal, but seeks a balance.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

perhaps you are right... perhaps this is a test to see if one is a true Baha'i or not. i suspect that i'd fail this test quite thoroughly

Actually, Vaj, I think you do a good job of explaining and NOT quibbling !

I think you are of great service to humanity and the principles we seek to promote, just having you as an informed and friendly face out there in the world!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

I don't know. My understanding is that the generality of mankind chooses, and will continue to choose, its own systems. In cases of sovereign states where Baha'is are the majority of citizens, the state would likely choose to adopt many of the features of the Baha'i model.

I think the important points are such principles as representation, free election, freedom of conscience, protection of rights, etc. which Baha'u'llah indicates are prerequisite to establishing peace and stability. I think the precise forms people may adopt to establish these principles in their governments is open.

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i do not consider the exclusion of an entire gender from the body politic to be trivial. eh... perhaps it's simply a difference in perspectives.

Wouldn't that term mean the entire Baha'i community?!? Then I guess I'm not a Baha'i?

ONE institution consisting of NINE persons in a community of 5-8 million members being gender specific can hardly be termed "the body politic!"

Come on Vaj, give us a BIG obstacle -- like refusing to retaliate when attacked for one's beliefs -- accepting to be tortured and killed for refusing to recant -- or even learning how to refrain from gossip and backbiting?

;-)

Vaj, I see by your posts here, and on other boards how graciously you allow for difference of opinion. Can you grant a Manifestation of God ONE little corner where He can disagree with you?

;-)

blessings & peace

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

my question about the NSA was more related to the methods that the Baha'i utilize for their election process. perhaps, my question isn't very clear... would the same electoral process be used in the Baha'i vision of a world government or would a different electoral process be used?

Baha'i elections are very unique.

In each community where there are 9 adult Baha'i's a Local Spiritual Assembly will be formed. Each adult in the community will gather together and in a reverent and prayerful atmosphere will vote for the 9 people they feel will serve their community with selfless devotion. There is no campaigning, no telling others, 'vote for me'. The nine members who receive the most votes will serve on the local assembly for the following year.

Each year at unit conventions, all adult Baha'i's will utilize the same process to elect one delegate to go to the National Convention. These delegates at the National Convention will utilize the same process to elect the National Spiritual Assembly in each country.

The National Spiritual Assemblies will elect the Universal House of Justice through this same prayerful process. (I believe this only occurs every 5 years.)

I'm sure others will be able to give more detailed responses.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[Vajradhara]

Namatse barefootgal,

thank you for the post.

my intention is to understand, not belittle or besmirch another spiritual tradition and i hope that my posts are indicative of such an intention.

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

It's just that the UHJ, while being the "Supreme" institution on matters of Baha'i law is the ONLY place in the Faith where you will find a men-only situation. Every other institution of the Faith, including the however many hundreds of National Spiritual Assemblies, Local Spiritual Assemblies, Teaching Committees, Boards of Counselllors is open to women and men both, and, as I mentioned, seem to be dominated by the women. In practice, the Faith is neither Patriarchal nor Matriarchal, but seeks a balance.

this is what i just don't grasp, besides being specifically prohibited from holding a position in the UHJ, is there any *reason* for such an exclusion for women? these types of things are explicit in the other semetic traditions and thus it doesn't surprise me to find them implicit in the Baha'i tradition, though i could be mistaken on this one.

from what i understand, the UHJ has the final arbiting authority in a matter of dispute amongst Baha'i, is that correct? if so, does it at all strike you as vaguely mysoginistic that a woman can't be trusted to make informed decisions for *all* Baha'i but she can make decisions for her group (is the term Local Spirital Assembly?)?

Actually, Vaj, I think you do a good job of explaining and NOT quibbling !

I think you are of great service to humanity and the principles we seek to promote, just having you as an informed and friendly face out there in the world!

thank you for the kind words i try to understand as much as my limited intellect can and then try to present said limited understanding when confronted with understanding that is more limited than my own. as for doing a service to humanity... well... that, i suppose, remains to be seen

I don't know. My understanding is that the generality of mankind chooses, and will continue to choose, its own systems. In cases of sovereign states where Baha'is are the majority of citizens, the state would likely choose to adopt many of the features of the Baha'i model.

I think the important points are such principles as representation, free election, freedom of conscience, protection of rights, etc. which Baha'u'llah indicates are prerequisite to establishing peace and stability. I think the precise forms people may adopt to establish these principles in their governments is open.

ah... thank you for your perspective on this issue

[Vajradhara]

Namaste barefootgal,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by barefootgal9

Wouldn't that term mean the entire Baha'i community?!? Then I guess I'm not a Baha'i?

well... perhaps it could mean that.. though i was trying to limit it to the elected members of the UHJ as this is the ultimate arbiting authority for the Baha'i.

ONE institution consisting of NINE persons in a community of 5-8 million members being gender specific can hardly be termed "the body politic!"

ah.. but i disagree i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect... however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.. perhaps this is what you (or another poster) were alluding to previously? in any event... this group, perhaps "executive body" would have been better? is the one from which women are excluded.

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

i do appreciate the patience that has been shown whilst engaging in my sometimes pointless conversation.

Come on Vaj, give us a BIG obstacle -- like refusing to retaliate when attacked for one's beliefs -- accepting to be tortured and killed for refusing to recant -- or even learning how to refrain from gossip and backbiting?

oh.. i've got some big ones that, again based on my scant knowledge, would seem to be rather tricky for the Baha'i i'm interested in exploring this topic a bit further though, so i'll refrain for now from asking anything else.

Vaj, I see by your posts here, and on other boards how graciously you allow for difference of opinion. Can you grant a Manifestation of God ONE little corner where He can disagree with you?

well.. as long as it is a small corner and not too well decorated... i suppose that a Manifestation of God can disagree with me... though honestly, why they would want to is beyond me

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,

thank you for the response.

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Baha'i elections are very unique.

In each community where there are 9 adult Baha'i's a Local Spiritual Assembly will be formed. Each adult in the community will gather together and in a reverent and prayerful atmosphere will vote for the 9 people they feel will serve their community with selfless devotion. There is no campaigning, no telling others, 'vote for me'. The nine members who receive the most votes will serve on the local assembly for the following year.

not to nitpick... so.. if there are 9 an assembly is formed for the local area and then these 9 are elected to 9 positions in the local area assembly? however, they cannot tell each other whom to vote for or make critical remarks of another, is that correct?

i realize that the tradition has no clergy.. so... in this group of 9 adults... who leads the "flock" so to speak?

Each year at unit conventions, all adult Baha'i's will utilize the same process to elect one delegate to go to the National Convention. These delegates at the National Convention will utilize the same process to elect the National Spiritual Assembly in each country.

is the unit convention something that is above the local assembly but below the national convention? do the delegates that go to the national assembly of one nation elect members for another nation?

The National Spiritual Assemblies will elect the Universal House of Justice through this same prayerful process. (I believe this only occurs every 5 years.)

I'm sure others will be able to give more detailed responses.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

are all the assemblies a 5 year term or is that particular to the UHJ?

thank you in advance for your answers as i suspect that some of them may take some digging on your behalf.

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajra,

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

not to nitpick... so.. if there are 9 an assembly is formed for the local area and then these 9 are elected to 9 positions in the local area assembly? however, they cannot tell each other whom to vote for or make critical remarks of another, is that correct?

correct. (It simplifies the process quite a bit if there are only 9 in any given community. )

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i realize that the tradition has no clergy.. so... in this group of 9 adults... who leads the "flock" so to speak?

Once an assembly is formed they will elect officers, i.e. Chair, vice-chair, secretary and treasurer, each has their specific role to fill. But as a rule no one person has authority over another. Consultation is the key. Hopefully arriving at a unanimous decision but if that does not occur, majority rules.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

is the unit convention something that is above the local assembly but below the national convention? do the delegates that go to the national assembly of one nation elect members for another nation?

Ah, now we get into logistics. The unit conventions allow for isolated members of the Baha'i community to have input into the election of the delegate who will go to the National convention. Each country is divided up into electoral units. In my case it encompasses most of Nebraska and half of Iowa. Each October each unit has a convention in which we get to consult on issues within the larger community as well as have the opportunity to cast our ballot for the delegate. We also can vote by sending in an absentee ballot if unable to attend.

The delegates for each nation, vote for the National Spiritual Assembly of their own nation.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

are all the assemblies a 5 year term or is that particular to the UHJ?

Assemblies are elected every year, only the UHJ is for 5 years.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

thank you in advance for your answers as i suspect that some of them may take some digging on your behalf.

No problem, I didn't dig, yet .

I should mention that I personally have not served on an Assembly as I am an isolated believer. My daughters and I are the only Baha'i's in our county. Another recent development within the construct of the Faith is the formation of 'clusters'. This allows those of us who are isolated to form a community of sorts. My cluster includes 5 counties. This was the impetus we personally needed. We had always known we should get together and deepen etc. But never had gotten around to it. Now, since this development we are meeting regularly to hold feast, study circles and childrens classes, we will also be starting devotional gatherings soon. It is strengthening our knowledge and the bonds of friendship between us. We take turns meeting in each others homes. It has been wonderful. We cannot elect an Assembly in these clusters but can practice consultation and encourage individual intiative. As well as be better able to stay connected. I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it can be for anyone to be isolated with no one near by who holds the same views as you. It has been incredibly difficult for my daughters. But in the past few months their faith has also grown and they have discovered the beauty of the Faith through their own independent search. Thanks in part to the development of 'clusters'.

Keep the questions coming.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for the reply.

as an aside... would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

[9Harmony]

Namaste Vajra,

I just want to address a couple points...

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

... however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

We need to be active in our communities and get to know people and vote based on our knowledge of their character. Only Baha'i's are eligible to serve in these capacities and as such they should all be representing the Baha'i principals. During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved. And consult with each other until they feel they understand the issues. The Assembly is not just an administrative vehicle. If conducted properly the Assembly has the assistance of the concourse on high. Members are instructed to leave their egos at the door, each meeting begins with prayers and all members should be loving and courteous to each other. If conducted in the proper spirit, divine confirmations will descend upon their efforts.

(Baha'i consultation would make a good thread to elaborate on this theme -hint, hint )

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

... i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

Neither do we. Some Baha'i's also have a problem with this aspect, but I am not one of them. If we believe that Baha'u'llah is who He said He was, and this is what he designed, there must be a reason for it. We are told that this reason will become evident eventually. We are just not privy to it yet. Women can participate in all other areas of the Faith. There is alot of speculation within the community of why it's this way and when I have more time i can share some of them with you if you would like.

But it's time for me to leave right now. So let me know if i can assist further.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for expounding on that topic a bit further....

can you explain what you mean when you use the word "deepen"? you use it here: "During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved."

does this mean some sort of spiritual state is achieved and then the writings are reflected over, i.e. meditated on, to discern the spiritual truth hidden in the words?

i've got to leave for the day as well.. visit with the accupuncturist

enjoy your evening!