Baha'i/Ananda Marga

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for the reply.

as an aside... would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

In an Assembly we always aim for unamity and consensus...when this cannot be achieved after some efforts in consultation, then the majority prevails and the minority is expected to support it the decision of the Assembly...

We also are bound not to discuss Assembly business other than aking reports to the community at Feasts.

When Baha'is meet as an Assembly it is as an Institution.... The individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves... that is they have no power as individuals...Their only "power" is representing the Assembly.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings! :-)

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i was trying to limit it to the elected members of the UHJ as this is the ultimate arbiting authority for the Baha'i.

I fear you are quite mistaken!

The ultimate authority for Baha'is is the Baha'i scriptures, and hence, God (Who we believe revealed them)!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect. however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

Serving on the House of Justice is a full-time position. And I suspect it takes all the time to deal with everything coming to it from the entire world! (At the national level, only the Secretary-General tends to be full time from what I've seen; the other eight members come--say--every two weeks to meet in person.)

As to how one knows whom to vote for, this is the same as for ALL Baha'i elections! One votes for the nine individuals one feels are best-equipped to serve. This tends to include such things as humility, dedication to God and to the Faith, depth of knowledge and experience, etc..

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.

It can be, yes. But this overlooks the fact that those serving--at ANY Baha'i administrative level--have no special status and no special authority whatever! They are "just Baha'is" like any other. Authority resides only in the body as a whole, and only when it is actually meeting. Also again, these are all positions of service, and the higher the administrative level, the more dedicated (and humble) those serving are likely to be!

It's also worth noting that there is no renown attached to serving on an elected Baha'i body. In contrast, there are positions of renown in the Faith, in particular those of Hand of the Cause of God and Continental Counsellor (who are collectively referred to as "the learned"). They have no administrative power themselves, but act as advisors to the elected bodies. And women serve and have always served in these positions!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment.

Then I have very good news for you! :-)

Baha'is do not "discriminate based on gender, race, . . .!"

God made this rule, not we! (And in fact, if it were left to us, the overwhelming majority of us probably would have set things up so that women could serve!) But since we (like all the rest of humanity) don't have the right to complain about or ignore God's decisions, we obey them.

(And as a footnote, another thing the detractors tend to omit is the fact that women also get their own priority over men--ALL women world wide, not just nine or fewer! This is in the matter of receipt of education: according to the Baha'i scriptures, every woman takes precedence over men for receipt of education!)

Peace,

Bruce

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Harmony,


thank you for expounding on that topic a bit further....

can you explain what you mean when you use the word "deepen"? you use it here: "During Assembly meetings, the entire assembly will deepen on the writings to gain a greater understanding of the principal involved."

does this mean some sort of spiritual state is achieved and then the writings are reflected over, i.e. meditated on, to discern the spiritual truth hidden in the words?

i've got to leave for the day as well.. visit with the accupuncturist

enjoy your evening!

I think the answer to your question is in the affirmative... There are many Writings available pertaining to a variety of subjects as well as Letters of direct guildance from our Institions to the believers so time is spent in Prayer and Meditation before deliberating and making decisions... we have a process we call Consultation where every view on a topic is solicited and considered before a vote is taken... Once the Assembly decides on an issue that then is supported by the members.

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again! :-)

For the record, a "deepening" is Baha'i jargon for a study class. When we speak of folks deepening, we're generally referring to studying the Baha'i scriptures, mutually sharing impressions and opinions to arrive at a better understanding of them. An Assembly's deepening might be about the relevant Writings on a given topic, for example. . . .

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

would it be fair to characterize the Baha'i faith as a tradition that promotes the majority rather than the minority? i.e. in a vote, the majority wins and the minority loses, are the minority then bound to the decision made by the majority?

Consensus is always the goal. But if a consensus can't be reached, then decisions may be made through a majority vote, and once the decision is reached, all have the obligation to support the decision. (There are procedures through which one can request reconsideration of a matter, or in urgent cases, have the question referred to a higher administrative body, but this is rare.)

The Baha'i scriptures tell us that it's more important to preserve unity and work within that context to suggest further changes, than it is to risk splitting the community in order to force one's viewpoint. (As I trust you already know, promoting spiritual unity and oneness is the single major emphasis and goal of the Baha'i Faith.)

It would be misleading to dismiss this as mere tyranny of the majority, however. Not only do we believe that truth will eventually out such that bad decisions, if any, will ultimately be corrected, but there are protections and prerogatives for minorities in place, too!

Not only is "Unity in Diversity" the Baha'i watchword, but in particular, if two or more people tie for last place on a Baha'i administrative body in an election, if one of them is a minority, he or she automatically gets the office! The definition of "minority" varies from place to place. (If there is no minority tying, a run-off election is held between those who tied.)

And if you look at Baha'i administrative bodies from any diverse community, I think you'll find they have a striking amount of variety in their makeup! :-)

(While Baha'i chorales clearly aren't administrative bodies, I sing in a couple of them, and I've been struck over the years by how many interfaith concerts we've sung at where the Baha'i chorale was the ONLY diverse group participating! In most cases EVERY other group was either all white or all black, or in a few cases all white except for a single black singer! Truly a pity, but I do think this shows something. . . .)

Peace,

Bruce

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i cannot say what these 9 men do on a day to day basis... if you could fill us in that would greatly facilitate the conversation i suspect...

I don't entirely know... tho I suppose they start by getting up and brushing their teeth...

uh, ok. seriously: I can list some of the day-to-day things that they do:

-- direct a staff which includes secretariat, research team, others
-- deal with requests for specific guidance on issues from the xx National Spiritual Assemblies
-- respond to all recommendations suggested by the Baha'is at their Conventions
-- consult with counsellors, board members, etc about the needs/concerns of communities
-- develop plans for growth and consolidation
-- oversee the preparation of materials for use by communities to assist in improving their ability to serve the needs of the believers
-- they (more likely staff, in minor matters) respond to personal inquiries and questions from individual believers
-- oversee the preservation of original texts and their translation into other languages

Here is a link to the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice so that you can peruse it in detail, if you wish:

http://www.bahai.org/article-1-3-6-1.html

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

however, it seems that since there is no "electioneering" i.e. trying to get votes, representing your position and so forth, how does one know whom to vote for and what they represent?

Each of us votes for people whom we know, in our own local communities, we get to know each other pretty well. In very large communities (1000-2000 members, we are unlikely to know one another so intimately, but, we naturally get to know best those people who are most active -- these people become broadly known directly because of their levels of commitment, dedication and capacity. Once we reach the Convention level, our chosen delegates are generally people who are active on a regional or national level and tend to travel broadly, as regional teaching commitee members, speakers, summer school teachers, writers, website hosts, etc., and these people really are quite well known to us and to each other.

When a vote is taken, at any level, we are instructed to search our hearts for the people known to us who have the capacities needed to fill the role of serving on the elected institutions.

I'm going to holler for a little help from Shoghi Effendi here:

"Hence it is incumbent upon the chosen delegates to consider without the least trace of passion and prejudice, and irrespective of any material consideration, the names of only those who can best combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience."

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

whilst i agree with the principle that 9 people do not a "body politic" make, if the group that is empowered to make binding decisions is not open to all members, it can be viewed in a very exclusive fasion.. perhaps this is what you (or another poster) were alluding to previously? in any event... this group, perhaps "executive body" would have been better? is the one from which women are excluded.

I guess this is an unanswerable. Maybe it's a Koan? I asked my ex-husband and friend (he is schizophrenic-Taoist-sort of Baha'i and an occassional source of a unique point of view!!!!) what I might answer to this, since we have already told you that we don't know why ... he said: "Because Baha'u'llah wanted it that way."

But perhaps a quote or two about the equality of men and women might assuage the "pricking of your thumbs" a bit:

"The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes is essential to human progress and the transformation of society. Inequality retards not only the advancement of women but the progress of civilization itself. The persistent denial of equality to one-half of the world's population is an affront to human dignity. It promotes destructive attitudes and habits in men and women that pass from the family to the work place, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. On no grounds, moral, biological, or traditional can inequality be justified. The moral and psychological climate necessary to enable our nation to establish social justice and to contribute to global peace will be created only when women attain full partnership with men in all fields of endeavor." First paragraph of Two Wings of a Bird; The Equality of Women and Men
by National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States
entire document at:
http://bahai-library.com/?file=nsa_two_wings_bird.html

no, make that just one quote. I've already given you a day's worth of reading. If you do a search at that link you will find dozens of similar documents. This one represents our attitude very well.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i know that i seem to be going on and on about it.. but i really have no tolerance (pun intended) for people that discriminate based on gender, race, creed, sexual orientation or physical impediment. i'm not saying that the Bahai' faith does this, however, this is the impression that i currently have based on my admittedly scarce knowledge of your tradition, thus, my repetitive queries.

i do appreciate the patience that has been shown whilst engaging in my sometimes pointless conversation.[/QUOTE]

Well, this sort of answers your question about what is "deepening." People keep asking questions and we keep having to hit the books... thus we expand our knowledge and "deepen" our understanding. Wrestling with angels is good for us. ;-)

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

oh.. i've got some big ones that, again based on my scant knowledge, would seem to be rather tricky for the Baha'i

I know. I don't mind. And wrestling with angels is probably good for you, too. ;-)

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i'm interested in exploring this topic a bit further though, so i'll refrain for now from asking anything else.

I'll be here as long as your curiosity holds out.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

well.. as long as it is a small corner and not too well decorated... i suppose that a Manifestation of God can disagree with me... though honestly, why they would want to is beyond me

;-) aw, let us keep the nice decorations...

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, greetings! :-)

Vaj, in addition to what we've said above, not only are Baha'is working the world over for the equality of women and their advancement, but the Baha'i International Community is a formal member of UNIFEM, the UN agency for women's development and equality, and indeed, last fall was chairing UNIFEM! :-)

(We're also in ECOSOC, UNICEF, and UNEP (the environmental agency), to name a few. . . .)

Best,

Bruce

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


crikey! just a few responses

lots of information is being transmitted so please pardon me if i seem to be overlooking something that was mentioned.

barefootgal, well.. i suppose that you can say that and that may work for some.. but it doesn't work for me, sorry. i suppose that i should say that if a particular tradition places restrictions on people i have no real issue with that within the context of that tradition. if women are not allowed to be elected to the UHJ, so be it. i am a curious individual and always find the reasonings for such things to be fascinating.


arthra, i have no desire to have you discuss administrative issues that are particular to your faith, especially if you are prevented from doing so! i do find it interesting that in the Baha'i political system the individual is virtually worthless whilst the group is invested with the power. do you think something like that would be able to work in a large, organized state?

BruceDLimber, i think that you touch on it pretty well with this statement: "It would be misleading to dismiss this as mere tyranny of the majority, however."

as i'm sure you know, the United States government was designed to protect the rights of the invidual rather than the majority, which has thus far, seemed to work out ok. whilst the US isn't a complete democracy (a consitutional republic) would you expect that a nation with a historical perspective of promoting individual rights would be receptive to a political system wherein the individual wasn't considered to be all that important?



as a general follow up to that question, in a large community of Baha'i, how is the adherent supposed to know whom all the canditates that stand for election are? i suppose i'm having some difficult grasping the nature of the political system that the Baha'is use in their own affairs. understanding this would allow me, i beleive, to have a greater understanding of the character of a united world in the Baha'i faith.

now.. in regards to the UHJ being the ultimate authority... this is something that i found interesting:

"There being no successor to Shoghi Effendi as Guardian of the Cause of God, the Universal House of Justice is the Head of the Faith and its supreme institution, to which all must turn, and on it rests the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the unity and progress of the Cause of God. Further, there devolve upon it the duties of directing and coordinating the work of the Hands of the Cause, of ensuring the continuing discharge of the functions of protection and propagation vested in that institution, and of providing for the receipt and disbursement of the Huqúqu'lláh."

this seems to support my assertion that the UHJ is the ultimate authority of the Baha'i on this plane of existence...

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

as a general follow up to that question, in a large community of Baha'i, how is the adherent supposed to know whom all the canditates that stand for election are? i suppose i'm having some difficult grasping the nature of the political system that the Baha'is use in their own affairs. understanding this would allow me, i beleive, to have a greater understanding of the character of a united world in the Baha'i faith.

Namaste Vajra,

All adult (21+) Baha'i's are eligible to be elected. It is our responsibility to get to know everyone, as many as possible. So in a community with 1000 adult Baha'i's, all 1000 are eligible to serve on the Assembly. If we only know 50 of them, we will vote for the 9 of those 50 that we feel will best serve the Faith.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[barefootgal9]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

barefootgal, well.. i suppose that you can say that and that may work for some.. but it doesn't work for me, sorry. i suppose that i should say that if a particular tradition places restrictions on people i have no real issue with that within the context of that tradition. if women are not allowed to be elected to the UHJ, so be it. i am a curious individual and always find the reasonings for such things to be fascinating.

As I've stated, however, no "reasonings" for this limitation were given, so we are just stuck here when it comes to trying to explore "why?" We can only come up with speculations of our own until such time that "the reason will become apparent" -- which 'Abdu'l-Baha said would happen one day. Perhaps the true reason is one we would, at this stage in our development, find objectionable -- but 500 years from now, conditions in the world will have changed to the degree that all will at that time find it utterly obvious that this is an absolute neccessity.

I take a lesson from a story which may be familiar to you: of the villagers who were told by their wiseman not to graze their goats on the hillside. Long after the wiseman is dead, and respect for him has faded and been forgotten, a drought occurs, and the desperate villagers decide that there is no reason, that they can see, not to let the goats roam the hillside. The grazing, of course, quickly decimates the delicate ecosystem of the hills, and without the stabilizing roots of its sparse vegetation there is nothing to hold the thin soil. When the rains finally do come, the entire hillside becomes unstable and the village is destroyed in a devastating mudslide.

So, do we defy an exhortation that we do not understand until such time as we can understand it? Or do we follow the exhortation of one whose wisdom we trust, study and question and increase our knowledge until we understand it? Baha'is are bidden to do the latter, as this, at the very least, will prevent disunity, conflict and strife -- and these will be very much more harmful to our community than even doing the "wrong" thing sometimes will be.

This relates to the idea of the UHJ having "supreme" and ultimate authority -- the most important thing here is that somewhere, somehow, by some institution, a resolution be agreed upon. It may sometimes be a less than perfect resolution, it may even rarely be utterly "wrong." A bad decision will quickly become evident and can be easily corrected -- but the wounds inflicted from bitter discord may take decades to heal, and in the cases of individuals injured by invective and contention, may never fully heal.

For Baha'is, the Manifestations of God, and in our time, Baha'u'llah, is "The Divine Physician" -- prescribing what we need for our well-being and safety right now, and for the balance of the millenium. Our own sight and knowledge are limited, while that of the Divine Physician is beyond all limitation. That a certain pill is bitter to our taste does not indicate that it is bad medicine.

Yes! We are encouraged to question everything and seek the knowledge and understanding we need to know the reasons for things. But, as I understand and accept it, while we are waiting for our understanding to develop well enough to do our own doctoring, the path of wisdom is to act on the advice of our Physician.

"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it."
-- Baha'u'llah (citing a maxim from Persian tradition, I believe)

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

a political system wherein the individual wasn't considered to be all that important?

Safeguarding the rights and freedoms of individuals is one of the fundamental purposes of the Administrative Order

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

this seems to support my assertion that the UHJ is the ultimate authority of the Baha'i on this plane of existence...

Yes, but we must bear in mind the fact that the institution is acting in consultation and response to the other institutions of the cause, the recommendations and requests of Baha'i communities, and is required to be mindful and responsive (tho not obedient) to even the recommendations, requests and complaints of individual believers. It's ultimate and fundamental purpose is to serve the community.

What is hard to realize as an outsider looking in is how organically inter-connected the global, national, local and individual aspects of the community are in its functioning, and how immediate and intense the flow of communication is between the "highest" and "lowest" (i hate to use those terms as they imply comparative value or importance, which is not the case in the Baha'i adminstration) levels of the administrative structure. Also hard to grasp, as herein it differs completely in character from the political systems of countries, the ecclesiastical systems of other religions, and other various organizational structures, is the concept that the Administrative System exists to serve the Baha'is, and, emphatically, not vice versa.

This is a system created for us, and run by us -- and even for individual Baha'is like myself, it takes several years of familiarity with the system and how it works to begin to fully appreciate how VERY different it is in character from the institutions we are familiar with from other walks of life, and how remarkably well it really does work.

"Justice is, in this day, bewailing its plight, and Equity groaneth beneath the yoke of oppression. The thick clouds of tyranny have darkened the face of the earth, and enveloped its peoples" ...

"How vast is the tabernacle of the Cause of God! It hath overshadowed all the peoples and kindreds of the earth, and will, ere long, gather together the whole of mankind beneath its shelter. Thy day of service is now come. ...

Thou must show forth that which will ensure the peace and the well-being of the miserable and the downtrodden. Gird up the loins of thine endeavour, that perchance thou mayest release the captive from his chains, and enable him to attain unto true liberty."

http://bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/tb/6.html

[barefootgal9]

I just discovered this document, and the following passages seem to relate, at least in a general way, to a number of the ideas we are exploring in this thread:


"The second fundamental principle which enables us to understand the pattern towards which Baha'u'llah wishes human society to evolve is the principle of organic growth which requires that detailed developments, and the understanding of detailed developments, become available only with the passage of time and with the help of the guidance given by that Central Authority in the Cause to whom all must turn. In this regard one can use the simile of a tree. If a farmer plants a tree, he cannot state at that moment what its exact height will be, the number of its branches or the exact time of its blossoming. he can, however, give a general impression of its size and pattern of growth and can state with confidence which fruit it will bear. The same is true of the evolution of the World Order of Baha'u'llah. For example, we find the following illuminating explanation in a letter written by Shoghi Effendi to the Baha'is in America on 23 February 1924:

And as we make an effort to demonstrate that love to the world may we also clear our minds of any lingering trace of unhappy misunderstandings that might obscure our clear conception of the exact purpose and methods of this new world order, so challenging and complex, yet so consummate and wise. We are called upon by our beloved Master in His Will and Testament not only to adopt it unreservedly, but to unveil its merit to all the world. To attempt to estimate its full value, and grasp its exact significance after so short a time since its inception would be premature and presumptuous on our part. We must trust to time, and the guidance of God's Universal House of Justice, to obtain a clearer and fuller understanding of its provisions and implications. But one word of warning must be uttered in this connection. Let us be on our guard lest we measure too strictly the Divine Plan with the standard of men. I am not prepared to state that it agrees in principle or in method with the prevailing notions now uppermost in men's minds, nor that it should conform with those imperfect, precarious, and expedient measures feverishly resorted to by agitated humanity. Are we to doubt that the ways of God are not necessarily the ways of man? Is not faith but another word for implicit obedience, whole hearted allegiance, uncompromising adherence to that which we believe is the revealed +P 61 and express will of God, however perplexing it might first appear, however at variance with the shadowy views, the impotent doctrines, the crude theories, the idle imaginings, the fashionable conceptions of a transient and troublous age? If we are to falter or hesitate, if our love for Him should fail to direct us and keep us within His path, if we desert Divine and emphatic principles, what hope can we any more cherish for healing the ills and sicknesses of this world?"

http://www.bahai-library.com/uhj/theocracy.html

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, greetings! :-)

You couldn't be more wrong in thinking that "the individual is virtually worthless" in the Baha'i Faith, the more so given that we have no clergy and no hierarchy! The individual is far more important than you think, and I'm surprised this isn't clearer.

And as to "Individual Rights and Freedoms" there is a formal document from the House of Justice with this very title! You can find it on the bahai-library.org site we've mentioned. I think it might answer a lot of your concerns. And if you'd like me to post it here, just let me know! :-)

You are correct that the House is the supreme authority IN THIS PLANE. But as I said, God and the Baha'i scriptures are the ultimate Baha'i authority, and the House of Justice is also subordinate here and may not alter them.

As to how we can vote for others, I would say that the theory is that you vote only for those whom you know of personally (so that you can judge and compare their qualifications). And that those considered to be the best-qualified by the most other people do indeed tend to be the ones best qualified to serve! :-)

Regards,

Bruce

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings, greetings! :-)

You couldn't be more wrong in thinking that "the individual is virtually worthless" in the Baha'i Faith, the more so given that we have no clergy and no hierarchy! The individual is far more important than you think, and I'm surprised this isn't clearer.

the reason that this seems confusing is that Arthra said this in a previous post in this thread:

"individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves..."

which lead me to my statement.

i'll conceed that Arthra is expressing his own opinion and not official doctrine of the Baha'i faith, so it's quite possible that his experience is not the same as yours in this regard. i really cannot say.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Bruce,

thank you for the post.



the reason that this seems confusing is that Arthra said this in a previous post in this thread:

"individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves..."

which lead me to my statement.

i'll conceed that Arthra is expressing his own opinion and not official doctrine of the Baha'i faith, so it's quite possible that his experience is not the same as yours in this regard. i really cannot say.

Namaste Vajra,

I believe Art was just referring to the fact that individual Baha'i's have no authority by themselves, the institutions have the authority. But individuals have rights and responsibilities and can take many avenues of individual initiative. We definitely have a voice. Individuals are encouraged to do many things, but if guidance is needed we should go to an institution and ask for clarification.

Does that help?

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[barefootgal9]

[QUOTE=
the reason that this seems confusing is that Arthra said this in a previous post in this thread:

"individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves..."[/QUOTE]

Ahh! the light dawns! (sometimes a little gradually ... oh well)

No, what Arthra was referring to is the concept along the lines that there is no clergy. There is no single person in the Faith, even a Hand of the Cause, who has the authority to tell any Baha'i "you must believe this," or "this absolutely means that" or "only this viewpoint is allowable" or "you're out of line!" Thus the principle -- no individual can impose his take on another, there is no channel to the top, to a "kingship" where any individual can lodge in the administative system and lord it over or tyrannize anyone.

If, in a consulting group, a brand new Baha'i with no education, working as a hotel maintenance person, offers an opinion -- it is valued and considered with exactly the same weight as the opinion of a person who has been a Baha'i from birth, holds nine university degrees, and sits on the Universal House of Justice. The consulting group develops a consensus from all offered opinions. The ideas or opinions are judged or used based on their own merit, regardless of the apparent "rank" of the person who offered them.

Likewise, the institutions of the Faith must regard the requests, questions, difficulties, and recommendations of any member of the faith as equally important and valuable.

This strict absence of authority residing in an individual is to protect the development and free exchange of diversity of opinion and thought whilst maintaining the ties of unity (love). (NOT, and please God, NEVER, uniformity.)

(Indeed, most of the so-called 'splinters' are the carpings of individuals whose desire to get the Baha'is to bow down to them (or their particular opinion or interpretion) as "king" were frustrated. IMO)

[BruceDLimber]

Namaste! :-)

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

the reason that this seems confusing is that Arthra said this in a previous post in this thread:

"individual Baha'is that make up the Assembly count for nothing in themselves..."

I think this is just a miscommunication, and that what Arthra MEANT is that Baha'is who are on elected bodies have no special status whatever, but are "just Baha'is" like everyone else!

In this respect, EVERY Baha'i counts and is special, whether serving on an assembly or not--and for that matter, EVERY person in the world is equally special!

But the point we were trying to make is that someone who's been elected is not therefore "special" for that reason.

(And if I'm wrong, I'm sure Arthra will correct me!)

Sorry if we were unclear!

Regards,

Bruce