Baha'i confused about Mohammad

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Art

No am still awake but not for much longer.

So did the Baha'u'llah give prophesies or say that he received Divine revelation?

Of course I accept the difference between Divinely inspired and receiving Divine revelation but not knowing about Baha'u'llah I cannot judge what I think of his teachings without knowing the answer to the above question.

So do you believe this man was the Mahdi and therefore the End of Days is coming soon?

Salaam

Baha'is believe the "Qa'im" was His Holiness the Bab Who declared HImself to be the Promised One on Hajj in 1844/1260 AH.

Baha'u'llah declared His Mission formally in 1863 nineteen years later and fulfilled the prophecy of the Bab that He was HIm Whom God made manifest. Baha'u'llah was the "Qayyum". See:

http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?f...a&language=All

While Baha'u'llah lay in chains in the Siyyah Chal the Shah's prison in Tehran in 1853 He received what we Baha'is believe to be Divine Revelation ...

Here in a Tablet to the Shah Nasir'd-Din Shah himself Baha'u'llah revealed:

O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred. Can it be still when the tempestuous winds are blowing? Nay, by Him Who is the Lord of all Names and Attributes! They move it as they list. The evanescent is as nothing before Him Who is the Ever-Abiding. His all-compelling summons hath reached Me, and caused Me to speak His praise amidst all people. I was indeed as one dead when His behest was uttered. The hand of the will of thy Lord, the Compassionate, the Merciful, transformed Me. Can any one speak forth of his own accord that for which all men, both high and low, will protest against him? Nay, by Him Who taught the Pen the eternal mysteries, save him whom the grace of the Almighty, the All-Powerful, hath strengthened.

[Ahanu]

It seems that I am running around in circles, because The Seal of the Prophets has also been discussed before.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...marga-900.html

I read somewhere in the Kitab-i-Iqan that Muhammad's son says

I would like to point out that this person is Abu Abdillah, the sixth Imam, or Sadiq. I am getting this information from the index of the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Also, many people proclaimed themselves as prophets during Muhammad's time, so perhaps Abu Bakr declared Muhammad to be the last prophet to make the influence of other so-called prophets during the time of no importance. This is where it becomes one of the major religious tenets of Islam, but I am not sure. It is my opinion.

Plus, this is confirmed in the book "Islam's first Great General" by Richard A. Gabriel near the end and is mentioned by Karen Armstrong in her book "Islam" on page 25, which says that Abu Bakr made it into a political issue after Muhammad's death to make sure that people understood that Muhammad is the last of the prophets due to the riddah prophets. Just wanted to clear that up.

Peace In!

[arthra]

I just wanted to state here that we acknowledge there are different views of prophecy and interpretations of Holy Books.. Here you wil hopefully find the Baha'i view as this is a Baha'i forum..

Just as any religion has succeeded another there are varying views...

Christians have varying view of the Torah from Jews... Muslims will have varying views of the Gospels from Christians and we Baha'is will yet again have varying views of passages in the Qur'an and of Hadiths from the traditional ones...and different perspectives on the Gospels as well.

But where the individual comes in is independently weighing these views and deciding for themselves..there's the crunch and the responsibility!

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

I think for us the thread was pretty much resolved but you raise the issue of what the Seal of the Prophets means...as you wrote above:

The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said la nabiya ba 'di meaning 'no Prophet after me'.

- Art

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

Regards,
Imran

[bahai89]

Here is another quotation from Baha'i teachings about Muhammad:

For 1,300 years, Christians and Mussulmans have been quarrelling, when with very little effort their differences and disputes could be overcome and peace and harmony could exist between them and the world could be at rest! In the Qur'án we read that Muhammad spoke to his followers, saying:'Why do you not believe in Christ, and in the Gospel? Why will you not accept Moses and the Prophets, for surely the Bible is the Book of God? In truth, Moses was a sublime Prophet, and Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. He came to the world through the Power of God, born of the Holy Spirit and of the blessed Virgin Mary. Mary, His mother, was a saint from Heaven. She passed her days in the Temple at prayer and food was sent to her from above. Her father, Zacharias, came to her and asked her from whence the food came, and Mary made answer, "From on high." Surely God made Mary to be exalted above all other women.'This is what Muhammad taught His people concerning Jesus and Moses, and He reproached them for their lack of faith in these great Teachers, and taught them the lessons of truth and tolerance. Muhammad was sent from God to work among a people as savage and uncivilized as the wild beasts. They were quite devoid of understanding, nor had they any feelings of love, sympathy and pity. Women were so degraded and despised that a man could bury his daughter alive, and he had as many wives to be his slaves as he chose. Among these half animal people Muhammad was sent with His divine Message. He taught the people that idol worship was wrong, but that they should reverence Christ, Moses and the Prophets. Under His influence they became a more enlightened and civilized people and arose from the degraded state in which He found them. Was not this a good work, and worthy of all praise, respect and love?

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 46)

But do not therefore attribute to the Masters and Prophets the evil deeds of their followers. If the priests, teachers and people, lead lives which are contrary to the religion they profess to follow, is that the fault of Christ or the other Teachers?

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 46)

Muhammad's teachings were Divinely-intended to bring fellowship and unity to the hearts of His followers, 'Abdu'l-Baha explains:

It is certain that the greatest of instrumentalities for achieving the advancement and the glory of man, the supreme agency for the enlightenment and the redemption of the world, is love and fellowship and unity among all the members of the human race. Nothing can be effected in the world, not even conceivably, without unity and agreement, and the perfect means for engendering fellowship and union is true religion. "Hadst Thou spent all the riches of the earth, Thou couldst not have united their hearts; but God hath united them..."[1]
[1 Qur'án 8:64.]

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 74)

The essential purpose of the religion of God is to establish unity among mankind. The divine Manifestations were Founders of the means of fellowship and love. They did not come to create discord, strife and hatred in the world. The religion of God is the cause of love, but if it is made to be the source of enmity and bloodshed, surely its absence is preferable to its existence; for then it becomes satanic, detrimental and an obstacle to the human world.
In the Orient the various peoples and nations were in a state of antagonism and strife, manifesting the utmost enmity and hatred toward each other. Darkness encompassed the world of mankind. At such a time as this Bahá'u'lláh appeared. He removed all the imitations and prejudices which had caused separation and misunderstanding and laid the foundation of the one religion of God. When this was accomplished, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists all were united in actual fellowship and love.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 203)

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. (Qur'an 33:40)

The Arabic term used is khatam an-nibiyyin (Seal of Prophets).

Precisely!

And as we've pointed out repeatedly, this says that Muhammad is the Seal of the nabi, or minor prophets!

It says nothing whatever about the Ras'ul, or major Divine Messengers, Who included Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and now Baha'u'llah (the Founder of the Baha'i Faith)!

So our point holds, and we're more than happy to agree to your assertion that Muhammad was the seal of the nabi! No problem whatever!

As has also been pointed out, there is a sense in which EVERY Ras'ul (major Messenger) is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and the Seal! So again, not a problem.

Further, the Arabic word often translated into English as "seal" also has the meaning of "ornament" and so can simply be calling Muhammad the Ornament of the prophets. Nothing whatever about any sort of finish!

So I'd say we Baha'is are on firm ground on this one!

Best, :-)

Bruce

[Ahanu]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

So I'd say we Baha'is are on firm ground on this one!

I would not be so sure. . .

Could the Madhi have come? The Madhi will bring peace in the world, unite humankind in submission to G-d, there will be a great battle against sin. Do you see any evidence of that? This must be a process that takes a couple of centuries. . .

“And she [the law of Islam] brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb."

I could be wrong about Abu Bakr, but from a Muslim perspective, it may take more evidence. I suppose I am interested in what the Muslim's have to say

[Sean H.]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

Regards,
Imran

Imran, whenever you tell us something, you need to quote it, and show us where to find it. Muhammad said he was the seal of the prophets (little p, nabi) not seal of the Prophets (Big P, Rasul).

Also strange is the Bahai contention to reject "Islamic" traditions and sources - the Imams from the Family of the Prophet or even from Imam Ali, who lived with the Prophet. But at the same time, they are happy to accept "Western" sources about a Prophet.

Regards

I'm not really understanding. Can you give us some examples and quotes to explain what you're saying.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Sean H.

Imran, whenever you tell us something, you need to quote it, and show us where to find it. Muhammad said he was the seal of the prophets (little p, nabi) not seal of the Prophets (Big P, Rasul).

I'm not really understanding. Can you give us some examples and quotes to explain what you're saying.

If you noticed, I did give the quotation which came from Bahaullah. For the tradition from the Holy Prophet, you can look it up in Sunan-e-Abu Dawood, Kitab al Fitan. This incidentally is one amongst many which is narrated on the subject.

As regards my comment on the Bahai tendency to reject traditions stems from the comment that the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. The Bab in fact does not fit the position of the Mahdi as per traditions. I have written extensively about this on my web site - you can refer to it if you wish. The Bahai response to this has been one in denial wherein ALL traditions about the Mahdi are rejected by them save those which are quoted ONLY in Bahai books and do not find a place any where else.

Do you have any comments about the statement from Bahaullah about the completion of Prophethood and Messengership of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)?

Regards
Imran

[Sean H.]

I'll be happy to do a little looking around, and I'll be able to do more as I have more time. A few things to go along with what I'm saying, you mentioned 2 quotes earlier.

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

I don't see any reference to what book, tablet or whatever Baha'u'llah is quoted to have said in the first instance. I also don't know if the second quote comes from Baha'u'llah. I also don't know where it comes from.

I think that to properly discuss this subject, we need to quote what we say, and not speak in generalities. Generalities have been used for centuries by people. It is my opinion that speaking in generalities and not investigating statements has been a great cause of ill for mankind. In my opinion, for example it is because many Christians speak in generalities that they believe in the trinity as opposed to one God. I want to avoid that in our discussions, so that we can get to the truth of the matter.

I think what you say though is important, and that it needs to be thoroughly searched for the truth to come out. To be honest, I'm glad you brought it up, and if you wish to continue this discussion I hope that you and I Imranshaykh can be friendly towards each other if not friends.

I'll have more comments about the seal of the prophets later as we discuss. Give me some time, I think I'll create a new forum topic.

As a side note, I'm not entirely sure that all traditions regarding the Mahdi are reliable. Many people have fancies about the return of Christ in the future that are not supported in Scripture (and are sometimes silly, in my opinion). I would say the same about certain Mahdi traditions. I would also point to the Jewish expectations about the coming of the Messiah and his attributes both then and at our current history.

Of course I haven't done a lot of investigation on this particular topic, and to do this properly we need to investigate and not just guess.

[Sean H.]

edit: I was just thinking. I don't see why Baha'u'llah has to validate every tradition ever written. Just as the Bible does not contain completely accurate events or sayings of Jesus, the same is true of the traditions and hadiths. It may just so happen that some are accurate and Baha'u'llah chooses to mention them.

It's interesting because there's a passage in the Writings in which Baha'u'llah quotes from the Bible.

Through the power of God and His might, I shall now relate certain passages revealed in the Books of old, and mention some of the signs heralding the appearance of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones, that thou mayest recognize the Dayspring of this everlasting morn and behold this Fire that blazeth in the Tree which is neither of the East nor of the West.....

.....

And in the third Gospel, according to Luke, it is recorded: "There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, know that the kingdom of God hath drawn nigh."

...

Such is the text of the verses revealed in the past. By Him besides Whom there is none other God, I have chosen to be brief, for were I to recount all the words that have been sent down unto the Prophets of God from the realm of His supernal glory and the kingdom of His sovereign might, all the pages and tablets of the world would not suffice to exhaust My theme. References similar to those mentioned, nay even more sublime and exalted, have been made in all the Books and Scriptures of old. Should it be My wish to recount all that hath been revealed in the past, I would most certainly be able to do so by virtue of that which God hath bestowed upon Me of the wonders of His knowledge and power. I have, however, contented Myself with that which was mentioned, lest thou become wearied in thy journey or feel inclined to turn back, or lest thou be overtaken by sadness and sorrow and overcome with despondency, trouble and fatigue.
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 8)

It's interesting because Baha'u'llah doesn't say that the reported scriptures are completely accurate. However, he is content with quoting scriptures that we have rather than quoting sayings of Messengers (including Muhammad) that have been lost to history. In fact I would argue that this can only give credence to Baha'u'llah. Not all traditions and hadith are accurate, and in fact some flatly contradict each other.

But, once again we need to start at the beginning. Give me some time (I've got a big week coming up).

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

This is in part reiteration, but it's important to remember that we Baha'is reject ALL "traditional sources" as unreliable hearsay! This includes the Baha'i sources we call "pilgrims' notes" as well as any Islamic hadith not explicitly quoted in the Baha'i scriptures.

Our Faith is based on reliable scripture, supplemented by other scripture.

Specifially, we regard these scriptures as completely reliable:

• the Baha'i scriptures
• the Qur'an.

The Bible (both Jewish and scriptures) is not completely or literally accurate but remains spiritually accurate (IOW, to date what alterations and corruptions it has undergone have not significantly damaged its spiritual message).

Other scriptures have become unreliable over the centuries so that while we refer to them, they tend not to be all that reliable.

Hence our complete reliance on Baha'i scriptures and the Qur'an, and our continuing reference to the Bible as well.

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Sean H.

I'll be happy to do a little looking around, and I'll be able to do more as I have more time. A few things to go along with what I'm saying, you mentioned 2 quotes earlier.

I don't see any reference to what book, tablet or whatever Baha'u'llah is quoted to have said in the first instance. I also don't know if the second quote comes from Baha'u'llah. I also don't know where it comes from.

I think that to properly discuss this subject, we need to quote what we say, and not speak in generalities. Generalities have been used for centuries by people. It is my opinion that speaking in generalities and not investigating statements has been a great cause of ill for mankind. In my opinion, for example it is because many Christians speak in generalities that they believe in the trinity as opposed to one God. I want to avoid that in our discussions, so that we can get to the truth of the matter.

I think what you say though is important, and that it needs to be thoroughly searched for the truth to come out. To be honest, I'm glad you brought it up, and if you wish to continue this discussion I hope that you and I Imranshaykh can be friendly towards each other if not friends.

I'll have more comments about the seal of the prophets later as we discuss. Give me some time, I think I'll create a new forum topic.

As a side note, I'm not entirely sure that all traditions regarding the Mahdi are reliable. Many people have fancies about the return of Christ in the future that are not supported in Scripture (and are sometimes silly, in my opinion). I would say the same about certain Mahdi traditions. I would also point to the Jewish expectations about the coming of the Messiah and his attributes both then and at our current history.

Of course I haven't done a lot of investigation on this particular topic, and to do this properly we need to investigate and not just guess.

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

No generalities in the discussion. Lets all agree to discuss only from stuff which can be corroborated.

Is there any reason why you consider the traditions about the Mahdi as unreliable. Is it your own assesment of the traditions and if it is what is the basis for that. Is it because most traditions, and I mean most traditions about the Mahdi reject the Bahai concept. And it is just not about the Mahdi - most Islamic traditions on probably any issue are completely tangential to that of the Bahai Faith?

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Sean H.

edit: I was just thinking. I don't see why Baha'u'llah has to validate every tradition ever written. Just as the Bible does not contain completely accurate events or sayings of Jesus, the same is true of the traditions and hadiths. It may just so happen that some are accurate and Baha'u'llah chooses to mention them.

Dear friend:

Can you give an estimate - your own estimate - of how many traditions are reported in Islamic books. And how many were ever quoted by Bahaullah?

If you can tell us the answer and then if you can explain that why ALL the others (which probably run into thousands) are unreliable.

Also, just a friendly reminder - while ALL of the other traditions are considered "unreliable" by the Bahai Faith, they were reported much much before the Bahai Faith was born - just thought I would mention it so that there is no room for any conspiracy theory that traditions were manufactured only to falsify the Bahai Faith

[arthra]

There are traditions cited in the Baha'i Writings and we can check them... Particular by Imam Ali and some of the other Imams:

Similar sayings from the Imáms--the blessings of God be upon them--have been
recorded and are widely known, and are embodied in books worthy of credence.
Blessed is he that perceiveth, and speaketh the pure truth. Well is it with him
who, aided by the living waters of the utterance of Him Who is the Desire of
all men, hath purified himself from idle fancies and vain imaginings, and torn
away, in the name of the All-Possessing, the Most High, the veils of doubt, and
renounced the world and all that is therein, and directed himself towards the
Most Great Prison.

-- Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 42

What Bruce means is that we Baha'is are not guided by Muslim Traditions so much.. other than the ones cited in the Baha'i Writings and there is a Muslim forum here at Comparative Religion where this could be discussed.

Also we do not place that much authority on our own reports of sayings... Only the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Bab (that have been authenticated) and Abdul-Baha are accepted.

- Art