Baha'i confused about Mohammad

[Sean H.]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

No generalities in the discussion. Lets all agree to discuss only from stuff which can be corroborated.

Is there any reason why you consider the traditions about the Mahdi as unreliable. Is it your own assesment of the traditions and if it is what is the basis for that. Is it because most traditions, and I mean most traditions about the Mahdi reject the Bahai concept. And it is just not about the Mahdi - most Islamic traditions on probably any issue are completely tangential to that of the Bahai Faith?

I don't know imranshaykh. Do most Mahdi traditions differ from what actually happened? Or do they not? Is it really all that important?

Like I said about generalities, I have an initial idea and you have an initial idea. But just talking about these ideas (generalities) does us no good if we don't actually show examples of what we're saying. So, let's do some investigation.

As I said earlier, we need to start at the beginning and at the root from which all these issues start. Luckily for us, we have a completely reliable and accurate book. Please, give me some time and I'll make a new forum thread.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear friend:

Can you give an estimate - your own estimate - of how many traditions are reported in Islamic books. And how many were ever quoted by Bahaullah?

If you can tell us the answer and then if you can explain that why ALL the others (which probably run into thousands) are unreliable.

Also, just a friendly reminder - while ALL of the other traditions are considered "unreliable" by the Bahai Faith, they were reported much much before the Bahai Faith was born - just thought I would mention it so that there is no room for any conspiracy theory that traditions were manufactured only to falsify the Bahai Faith

I don't see how giving an estimate would be helpful. I don't know.

Well, Bruce and Arthra mentioned something that I forgot about. Reported sayings of a Messenger are not given credence in the Bahai Faith. As mentioned earlier we often call them Pilgrim's notes. I think indeed that any tradition given this standard is not reliable. In reality there may be some truth to the tradition, that doesn't mean that the tradition is reliable though, and by reliable I mean by the standards of the Bahai Faith. The same standard applies to us though, and I think that's important.

In my opinion, I do not think that the number of traditions bears an impact on anything. Nor in my opinion do I think that the length of time that these traditions has an impact on truth either. If they're unreliable, they're unreliable.

In my opinion, it's perfectly fine that Baha'u'llah quotes some traditions and doesn't quote others. It simply shows that some of the signs Muslims were looking for happened to be correct. I do not feel, in my opinion, that Baha'u'llah has to corroborate or come in a form that satisfies every tradition, given the fact that traditions are inherently unreliable since they are reported sayings recorded many years after Muhammad's death.

As I said earlier though, let's do some investigation together, but let's start at the beginning, please give me a little time.

[Sean H.]

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

Thanks for telling me where it is supposed to come from. For the first quote. I've done a search but the phrases and words said to be in Ishraqat are not there. The words Salutations does not appear. Lord of mankind only appears in the following quote

Turning Our face to the right, We beheld what the pen is powerless to describe; nor can it set forth that which the eye of the Lord of Mankind witnessed in that most sanctified, that most sublime, that blest, and most exalted Spot.

Messengership and prophethood are not mentioned in th passage at all. Neither is the word completed.

I also did an Ocean search through all of the Bahai Writings to look for a passage like the one you mentioned and found nothing at all. I think that whoever gave you that quote has a vendetta against the Bahai Faith and is making things up. The full text of Ishraqat is here Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

I looked at that second quote you gave about 30 imposters. I did a Qur'an Search and looked around some Hadiths but could find no such quote. In fact I've seen that quoted a few times, yet not no one ever says where it comes from.

Anywho, I do not want to post in this thread anymore. As I said multiple times, we need to start a new one and go from the beginning. Once again, please give me some time. I do not want to post here anymore, it's all cluttered and we need to start from the beginning.

[BruceDLimber]

Imran, you need to give a COMPLETE citation for the quote in question so we can look it up properly!

I've checked the Baha'i Reference Library (online at Baha'i Reference Library), but the Ishraqat there is on completely different pages from the page you specified, so at the very least you're looking at a completely different book!

Please specify:

• book author
• book title
• page number
• the exact number of the Ishraq being quoted.

Thank you.

Please note that the site you're referring to is an anti-Baha'i site and therefore untrustworthy for matters like this.

Further, citations of stuff not in English are simply useless for most of us.

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

There are traditions cited in the Baha'i Writings and we can check them... Particular by Imam Ali and some of the other Imams:

Similar sayings from the Imáms--the blessings of God be upon them--have been
recorded and are widely known, and are embodied in books worthy of credence.
Blessed is he that perceiveth, and speaketh the pure truth. Well is it with him
who, aided by the living waters of the utterance of Him Who is the Desire of
all men, hath purified himself from idle fancies and vain imaginings, and torn
away, in the name of the All-Possessing, the Most High, the veils of doubt, and
renounced the world and all that is therein, and directed himself towards the
Most Great Prison.

-- Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 42

What Bruce means is that we Baha'is are not guided by Muslim Traditions so much.. other than the ones cited in the Baha'i Writings and there is a Muslim forum here at Comparative Religion where this could be discussed.

Also we do not place that much authority on our own reports of sayings... Only the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Bab (that have been authenticated) and Abdul-Baha are accepted.

- Art

Can you please clarify:

What does Bahaullah mean when he says "books worthy of credence". This is indeed an important quotation for finally we can understand which books are considered worthy of credence by the Bahais and we can see which traditions of the Imams are enclosed therein.

Since this quotation came from Bahaullah so books by Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha are excluded for they (the books) were not present when Bahaullah made the comment. Or for that matter any other Bahai book for all books came after Bahaullah except those by the Bab

Also, it is not one book (ref Quran). It is many books for the word quoted is in plural. In any case, the Quran does not contain the traditions of the Imams.

Finally on this point, the tense used is the past tense - so Bahaullah must be referring to books which were recorded before him and not to those which would come in the future.

As regards the Bab, you have made it clear that there are some books of the Bab which are authenticated - who authenticates these books and where can these books be found.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Imran, you need to give a COMPLETE citation for the quote in question so we can look it up properly!

I've checked the Baha'i Reference Library (online at Baha'i Reference Library), but the Ishraqat there is on completely different pages from the page you specified, so at the very least you're looking at a completely different book!

Please specify:

• book author
• book title
• page number
• the exact number of the Ishraq being quoted.

Thank you.

Please note that the site you're referring to is an anti-Baha'i site and therefore untrustworthy for matters like this.

Further, citations of stuff not in English are simply useless for most of us.

Bruce

It is sad that most of you cannot understand the word of Bahaullah in the language in which it was revealed. The book is in Arabic - the translator can choose to ignore standard translation guidelines and given the quote in question, I am not surprised that he chose to.

Please look up the book in Arabic - it is original hand written form and not typed in English - get someone to translate it and let me know if the translation differs from the one quoted by me. The page number is that of the book in Arabic.

Of course if one wishes, one can always look the other way and believe that this quote never existed. As regards the web site, I find it strange that just because it is an "anti-Bahai" web site, it is already labelled as "unreliable" without even checking the credentials of the quote from the book in the language in which it is reported.

Regards,

Regards,

[arthra]

Sorry I can't really clarify at this time what is meant when Baha'u'llah wrote about books worthy of credence... It may refer to some of the collections of sayings attributed to Imam Ali in the Nahjul Balaghah but can't say for sure...doubtless you've read that.

I think the topic here though was dealt with some time earlier..

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Sorry I can't really clarify at this time what is meant when Baha'u'llah wrote about books worthy of credence... It may refer to some of the collections of sayings attributed to Imam Ali in the Nahjul Balaghah but can't say for sure...doubtless you've read that.

I think the topic here though was dealt with some time earlier..

- Art

Thank you for your candid confession. But given the sensitivity of the issue for us Muslims, we should seek some source - naturally in this case a Bahai source to understand. Does the UHJ have any view in this matter?

Now that we know that there are some traditions in "books worthy of credence" which are accepted by Bahaullah, we should, rather we must, try and understand which books they are and read what it meant within them.

Regards,

[arthra]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Thank you for your candid confession. But given the sensitivity of the issue for us Muslims, we should seek some source - naturally in this case a Bahai source to understand. Does the UHJ have any view in this matter?

Now that we know that there are some traditions in "books worthy of credence" which are accepted by Bahaullah, we should, rather we must, try and understand which books they are and read what it meant within them.

Regards,

You yourself can ask the Reseach Department at the World Center and inquire..

secretariat@bwc.org

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

You yourself can ask the Reseach Department at the World Center and inquire..

secretariat@bwc.org

- Art

Thanks, I will.

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

It seems that I am running around in circles, because The Seal of the Prophets has also been discussed before.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...marga-900.html



I would like to point out that this person is Abu Abdillah, the sixth Imam, or Sadiq. I am getting this information from the index of the Kitab-i-Iqan.



Plus, this is confirmed in the book "Islam's first Great General" by Richard A. Gabriel near the end and is mentioned by Karen Armstrong in her book "Islam" on page 25, which says that Abu Bakr made it into a political issue after Muhammad's death to make sure that people understood that Muhammad is the last of the prophets due to the riddah prophets. Just wanted to clear that up.

Peace In!

Hi

those are not Islamic confidence sources


Thanks

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

.

Could the Madhi have come? The Madhi will bring peace in the world, unite humankind in submission to G-d, there will be a great battle against sin. Do you see any evidence of that? This must be a process that takes a couple of centuries. . .

I know, I am jumping into this a little late, but my time around the computer is sporadic. You ask if I/we see any evidence of what?...Unity? mankind's submission to God?...A great battle against sin?

Yeah, I see signs daily. Since the Wonderment of The Bab and the Declaration of Baha'u'llah, the world has been in an ever constant change. We are truly heading towards an understanding of the term "The World Order of Mankind." As the world is "cleft asunder", the new world order of the Kingdom of God on earth is emerging.

It will probably take a long time. In fact, 'Abdu'l-Baha said, "Cam cam, ruz be ruz", little by little, day by day. Mankind changes slowly and hearts change slowly as well. Baha'u'llah said, "The world will unite one heart at a time." Not all at once but as each soul recognizes the Will of God, its heart changes. Baha'is pray for the coming of the Most Great Peace and hope for acceptance of the need of world unity by the leaders and followers of all nations.

Mick

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again.

I'll happily stipulate that it's too bad we don't all understand both Persian and Arabic!

But given that we don't, I'm afraid this fact doesn't substitute for your answering our assertions, the more so given that millions of Baha'is who don't know these language have accepted them as givens.

Thus, I'm afraid a better reply than "read the original" is needed.

Peace,

Bruce

[Opal]

Originally Posted by arthra

Baha'is have worked to reduce prejudices and ignorance of Prophet Muhammad in the west as well as having the Bible better appreciated in the East.

Theres a very nice quote somewhere by Shoghi Effendi that says that one of the tasks of Bahais is to remove predjudice that the West has about Islam