Baha'i Faith & Freemasonry...

[Popeyesays]

Perhaps it is because the Masons are supposedly founded on the principles of the men who designed and built the Jewish Temple, which the Romans destroyed around 70AD. Since then the Dome of the Rock has taken up part of the land the Temple originally rested on, and the prophetic Judaic traditions which revolve around Judaism are a threat to the Dome of the Rock which is the second most important holy place in IslaIf there is any real connection between the FreeMasons and Islam it is through the Sufi sect of Islam.

Regards,

Scott

[Postmaster]

Sorry I apologies, I didn't understand the last part did you say if there is a real connection with the freemasons its with the Sufi? Can you explain how to me?

Something I'd like to point out is, during the crusade periods the Muslims used to harbour the Jews from the Christians, I think at this point in history there interests used to be more common. Now it seems that has switched round today, Christians shelter the Jews (in some sense).

It has alot more to do with culture then religion, the placement of buildings just makes me laugh.

For an example now only. Pornography is banned in Islamic countries, whereas in the west it is allowed to be produced and distributed under a secular society. Can you imagine that thoughts like this horrify Islamic religious governments? During the time of the Crusades Jews would have been horrified by this thought today too. But today they are also involved in the distribution and production of Pornography as equally as everyone else invovled is.

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again, Peter!

Another aspect of the donations thing is that contributing to the Baha'i Funds is a privelege reserved for members.

Best, :-)

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Sufi is to Islam as Hassidism is to Judaism. It's a much more mystic and ecstatic approach to religion. Sufism does not really require one to be "Muslim", Jews, and Christians and Zoroastrians can all be Sufi within its internal definitions. It's main requirement is the belief in ONE God embracing all who acknowledge His Supremacy.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Thanks for that bit of info. And as I understand from various readings is that Bahá'u'lláh spent time with the Sufi.


When Freemasons travelling in the Moorish lands encountered Sufis, the mystics of Islam, they soon recognised a common bond. “Sufi-ism,” said Sir Richard Burton, was “the Eastern parent of Freemasonry.” John Porter Brown, an American diplomat in Turkey in the mid 1800s, was a Freemason who wrote sympathetically of the Sufi path. In The Darvishes, he admits finding it “rather strange that the Dervishes of the Bektashi Order consider themselves quite the same as the Freemasons, and are disposed to fraternize with them.” Brown commented how in Turkey Freemasonry had come to be generally regarded as “atheism of the most condemnable character.” A position not unlike the one held by Papus, the celebrated French occultist and Gnostic bishop, who tried to counter the Masonic lodges which, he believed, were in the service of British imperialism and the international financial syndicates. Papus also viewed Freemasonry as a diabolical perversion of the ancient secret tradition and atheistic at heart.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Thanks for that bit of info. And as I understand from various readings is that Bahá'u'lláh spent time with the Sufi.


When Freemasons travelling in the Moorish lands encountered Sufis, the mystics of Islam, they soon recognised a common bond. “Sufi-ism,” said Sir Richard Burton, was “the Eastern parent of Freemasonry.” John Porter Brown, an American diplomat in Turkey in the mid 1800s, was a Freemason who wrote sympathetically of the Sufi path. In The Darvishes, he admits finding it “rather strange that the Dervishes of the Bektashi Order consider themselves quite the same as the Freemasons, and are disposed to fraternize with them.” Brown commented how in Turkey Freemasonry had come to be generally regarded as “atheism of the most condemnable character.” A position not unlike the one held by Papus, the celebrated French occultist and Gnostic bishop, who tried to counter the Masonic lodges which, he believed, were in the service of British imperialism and the international financial syndicates. Papus also viewed Freemasonry as a diabolical perversion of the ancient secret tradition and atheistic at heart.

Indeed He did spend time with the Sufi's and was highly respected by them. During a two year period, Baha`u'llah lived among the Sufis of the Sulamanniyih. The Sufi teachers requested Him to write several things including "Ode to the Dove", The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys. He wrote the Kitab'1 Iqan shortly after His return to Baghdad.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

I did a quick search in google "freemasons and Sufi" and found that paragraph in a site... All this is interesting. I hope I don't come across as undermining Bahá'u'lláh, if he is linked with all these influences I think it's quite genius of how he interpreted them in a positive way and you can never take away the theological aspect of it. Bahá'u'lláh made Gnosticism "Hidden knowledge" mainstream.. or maybe one day.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I did a quick search in google "freemasons and Sufi" and found that paragraph in a site... All this is interesting. I hope I don't come across as undermining Bahá'u'lláh, if he is linked with all these influences I think it's quite genius of how he interpreted them in a positive way and you can never take away the theological aspect of it. Bahá'u'lláh made Gnosticism "Hidden knowledge" mainstream.. or maybe one day.

We'ree told that the Revelation is like a flowing river of crystal pure water.
Many will come to fill their pots at the river and take it away with them and never think about the source.

The Free Masons, dipped their buckets and went on.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Quite true. But I think it's valuable for Baha'is at least to know some of this history. I think with some people it will fuel quite alot of paranoia, speculation and conspiracy theories, which in some cases leads to the most atrocious crimes.

[arthra]

The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys were revealed by Baha'u'llah about the period He was in Suleymaniyyih and reflect a more mystical perspective. You can access the books at

The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh

There is a distinction however between Sufis and Baha'is in that we acknowledge the Manifestations of God as intermediaries between God and man or creation while many Sufis believe they can be one with God.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by arthra

The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys were revealed by Baha'u'llah about the period He was in Suleymaniyyih and reflect a more mystical perspective. You can access the books at

The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys of Bahá'u'lláh

There is a distinction however between Sufis and Baha'is in that we acknowledge the Manifestations of God as intermediaries between God and man or creation while many Sufis believe they can be one with God.

- Art

I'm not quite sure on that last part Art, here's a quote from sufi on wikipedia

It is often understood to imply that every phenomenon is an aspect of Truth and at the same time attribution of existence to it is false.

Would this not imply kind of an intermediary with God? Meaning there is no distinction at all with Baha'is? I can't find much info on the theology of sufi.

What I find interesting is how sufi due to the dominace of Islam resorted to practising in secret societies, in much the same way the freemasons did. But freemasons clearly state that they arn't a religion they offer a complimentary view with your own religion, which is all religions are from the same supreme being.

[Postmaster]

What I think is the idea of all religions coming form the same god is not a natural thought, it is intentful. Usually when something is based on nonsense it dies out. But some people were quite persistent to keep this idea alive even to the extent of forming secret groups. I can't see how theologically this idea would be considered heretical compared to the other world religions anyway, I think it is a threat to the very institution of that religion more then anything and that’s why deemed a heretical view. Rejecting the oneness of religion is rejecting a sound theological view in favour of the interests of a religious institution. Bahauallah turned the theology as integral into his religious institution which I think rids a certain evil in religion.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'm not quite sure on that last part Art, here's a quote from sufi on wikipedia Would this not imply kind of an intermediary with God? Meaning there is no distinction at all with Baha'is? I can't find much info on the theology of sufi.

What I find interesting is how sufi due to the dominace of Islam resorted to practising in secret societies, in much the same way the freemasons did. But freemasons clearly state that they arn't a religion they offer a complimentary view with your own religion, which is all religions are from the same supreme being.

Well, the Cathars and the Templars were both victims of religious intolerance and persecution. That Freemasonry both developed a tolerant attitude and an obsessive secrecy are no surprise. The Baha`i teachings say one cannot deny one's religion even under threat, this means that secrecy is not allowed in such matters.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

The Sufi also resorted to secrecy and Bahauallah became affiliated with them, which contributed to the development of the Baha'i faith. What I don't understand is, religion is imperfect from the truth, yet when it comes to being truthful about ones faith it’s taken seriously. Under Christianity one can not deny there faith either, but is that virtue significant enough for death? Might as well sacrifice someone to the sun god too.

[Popeyesays]

As to an "intermediary with God" the Baha`i teachings form a dichotomy of sorts--the kind of dichotomy that really isn't there when you consider it twi9ce.

The Manifestation is the only means to Know God, since God, in Himself is an Unknowable Essence. Yet we have no personal intermediary with God to stand between us and our transgressions. Our spiritual responsibility is to know and worship God, yet the only way we can do that is to know and be guided by the Manifestation. To do so is to fulfill the responsibility.

Yet our forgiveness comes from God ultimately, and in judgment we stand before God responsible for our own deeds.

To the Sufi and the Hassids the ecstasy of religion is to make us one with God directly. That is not possible according the teachings of the Bab and Baha`u'llah.

Regards,
Scott

Regards,
Scott