Baha'i faith influenced off an other relgion? - Page 2

Mick · 03-17-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal.

2 cents on that

Well, now, Bandit. That seems all inclusive. Just about covered whatever possibility that one could think of except one. We were talking about the messages from the Manifestations, which I had just professed, comes from God. We were not discussing religion, meaning the man made institution created to govern the thinking of the adherents. One is a totally different topic from the other.

The make-up of religion, in the past, has been influenced by many factors. Culture surely would be one of them.

Mick

I, Brian · 03-17-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal.

Certainly, but Manichaeism seems to have been dead as a religious body at least 600 years before Baha'u'llah. Saying otherwise might seem a little like claiming that the Etruscans directly influenced Christianity.

Postmaster · 03-17-2006, 07:51 PM

It’s not tho Brian. Etruscans were a race or ethnic group. I'm comparing religion on religion! It's like comparing Judaism with Christianity sure there is a connection.... But the religious founder of whom I'm taking about comes from the same family line and also both try to put all religious in one workable system! However one of these religions doesn't exist today!what does it means to the Baha'i faith when it holds the latest message of God.

Bandit · 03-17-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

Well, now, Bandit. That seems all inclusive. Just about covered whatever possibility that one could think of except one. We were talking about the messages from the Manifestations, which I had just professed, comes from God. We were not discussing religion, meaning the man made institution created to govern the thinking of the adherents. One is a totally different topic from the other.

The make-up of religion, in the past, has been influenced by many factors. Culture surely would be one of them.

Mick

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Certainly, but Manichaeism seems to have been dead as a religious body at least 600 years before Baha'u'llah. Saying otherwise might seem a little like claiming that the Etruscans directly influenced Christianity.

oh.

i was not meaning the core & the root of Bahai or the institutions established nor the dead religions. rather more or less, the outer edge - like where the rubber meets road, but not changing the rim & lock nuts of its foundation.
since i do not really know the core & complete foundation of Bahai, i would not be able to say, except that the core itself must be different from other religions. it just seems to me that the foundation has to be the guiding principal. (if) that foundation is the message from the manifestations then that would the core.

does that sound right?

this is where i see them all influenced, because the rubber from all religions kind of criss cross & zig zag while traveling forward & making turns down the road, but the rims, hub & axle & lock bolts are different & never change. you can change the rubber as needed.

that probably does not makes sense, but it makes sense to me. i relate cars to belief & faith a lot.

where is the definition for the foundation of Bahai here at CR? i was looking but did not see it. that might help me some.
thank you

Mick · 03-17-2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

oh.

this is where i see them all influenced, because the rubber from all religions kind of criss cross & zig zag while traveling forward & making turns down the road, but the rims, hub & axle & lock bolts are different & never change. you can change the rubber as needed.

that probably does not makes sense, but it makes sense to me. i relate cars to belief & faith a lot.

where is the definition for the foundation of Bahai here at CR? i was looking but did not see it. that might help me some.
thank you

Interesting analogy, Bandit, and I, too, relate to cars. I think, though, to explain the tire and wheel analogy in a Baha'i perspective would go like this. We are told the essence of all the religions of God are the one and the same so the rims, hub, axle and lug nuts are the same and the tire or the rubber is different. Think of a model of car. When I grew up, all the wheels of one type of car, say a Chevrolet, were the same, a steel rim. The tires, though were different in looks by being black wall or white wall and even different manufacturers.

Baha'u'llah told us that all of the religions of man, that came from the teachings of one of the Manifestations, have an identical core or essence. This is the spiritual part of religion that we recognize. It is this essence, this hint of God, that allows forums like this one to function. We recognize a kinship and are trying to find just what it is that is similar. Our problems arise when we spend time on the tire. Since each of the religions were the result of the Progressive Revelation of God, according to Baha'u'llah, the theme, if I may, seems different. But it really isn't. All of the Manifestations, before sharing the new world changing message, the one each of us has learned to love and cherish, reiterated the previous messages.

For instance, when Moses gave us the Ten Commandants, the same Ten Commandants each and every jurisprudence system in the world is designed around, He reiterated the message of the Covenant as told to us by Abraham. The Ten Commandants didn't usurp the Covenant, but helped us learn to live better so we could fulfill the Covenant.

So to summarize, Bandit, it is the essence or the core (wheel) of each of the great religions that is shared and the outer dressings, the directions (tire) that is different.

Now understand, this is the Baha'i perspective. Concerning the foundation of the Baha'i Faith, I am sure if you searched some other Baha'i threads, you would find what you are looking for. If not, then I would have to understand what you are referring to when you mention the "foundation".

warmly,

Mick

Bandit · 03-17-2006, 11:30 PM

thanks Mick

the rim style can change too along with the tire, like you say, but that inner part of the rim cannot change & the threads on the lock nuts cant change because it wont line up to the hub & bolts, & the nuts wont thread right. the hub, bolts, nuts & center diameter remain constant. unless you totally rip out the axle, hub & modify it.

i am not sure if i am getting it right, but it appears the foundation you mention, at least in thought seems to be kind of inverted.
i know the 10 commnadments, but not everyone really believes in them.

i know we talking about cars now, but it seems the principle applies to belief.

there has to be something in the Bahai faith that remains constant & that is what makes it what it is. i am thinking it is the message of these manifestations.
keep talking, i will get it eventually.

9Harmony · 03-18-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

thanks Mick

the rim style can change too along with the tire, like you say, but that inner part of the rim cannot change & the threads on the lock nuts cant change because it wont line up to the hub & bolts, & the nuts wont thread right. the hub, bolts, nuts & center diameter remain constant. unless you totally rip out the axle, hub & modify it.

i am not sure if i am getting it right, but it appears the foundation you mention, at least in thought seems to be kind of inverted.
i know the 10 commnadments, but not everyone really believes in them.

i know we talking about cars now, but it seems the principle applies to belief.

there has to be something in the Bahai faith that remains constant & that is what makes it what it is. i am thinking it is the message of these manifestations.
keep talking, i will get it eventually.

Hi Bandit,

in thinking about your wheel/tire concept, this is what came to my mind...

The wheel/hub etc, the part that is constant, represents the source of the message, i.e. God.

The tire represents the prophet, who has a direct connection to that source; and the tread, represents the message/teachings that the prophet brings. The tread of each tire may look and sound different, depending on the condition of the road. i.e. the road represents humanity.

the prophet brings their given message to humanity, (the rubber meets the road) and the more mileage each tire has (the older it is), the more gravel (i.e. dogma and tradition) gets stuck in the tread, obscuring the original design, this gravel can alter the sound of the tread as well as the effectiveness of the tire. yet the tread is still there underneath. And the hub (the constant source of which provides and makes it possible for the tire to meet the road) is always the same, never changing.

So i guess you could say that the one constant in the Baha'i Faith is our belief that all of the great prophets were connected to the same source. Though they may have focused on teaching us different aspects of the same One God, they all came to help humanity progress as a whole.

I hope that makes some sense. i'm not a car person, so hopefully i didn't confuse you more.

Have a great weekend!

Love & Light, Amy

Bandit · 03-18-2006, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Hi Bandit,
So i guess you could say that the one constant in the Baha'i Faith is our belief that all of the great prophets were connected to the same source. Though they may have focused on teaching us different aspects of the same One God, they all came to help humanity progress as a whole.

I hope that makes some sense. i'm not a car person, so hopefully i didn't confuse you more.

Have a great weekend!

Love & Light, Amy

i see it 9Harmony. you explained it similiar to the way Mick did & by pulling them together, i see you are both in agreement on the core of the Bahai faith.
it is good to have a foundation & a core to work from.

have a great weekend also.
Love & Light

kiwimac · 03-20-2006, 12:00 AM

Useful article on Manichaeism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

Kiwimac

Postmaster · 03-20-2006, 12:30 AM

There was conflict with this religion and Christianity more of less from the start and considered heretical.... Now this could be because early Christianity fort for high place in political society and was sucessful..... And so anything not agreeing went down the drain cough cough the Cathars for example. Just look at the Christian Orthodox faith we lost Constantinople. And Orthodoxy is more origianal and passive form of the Christian faith. God favors the vilian? Then again, just like Christ showed, true Christians take the fall....

Postmaster · 03-20-2006, 11:34 AM

I would like to mention that Manichaeism used the same Christian prophecies as the Baha'i faith to justify a prophetic claim. Other similarities are that Mani literally made an effort to write up the religion himself.

Quote:

The key to Mani's system is his cosmogony. Once this is known there is little else to learn. In this sense Mani was a true Gnostic, as he brought salvation by knowledge. Manichæism professed to be a religion of pure reason as opposed to Christian credulity; it professed to explain the origin, the composition, and the future of the universe; it had an answer for everything and despised Christianity, which was full of mysteries. It was utterly unconscious that its every answer was a mystification or a whimsical invention; in fact, it gained mastery over men's minds by the astonishing completeness, minuteness, and consistency of its assertions.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09591a.htm

Hmm....

BruceDLimber · 03-20-2006, 08:57 PM

[QUOTE=Bandit]i think all religions are influenced a little bit - by, from, in or to, each other. if not by another religion, at least by a culture or an ideal./QUOTE]

Probably oftener than we realize! . . .

Regards,

Bruce

Postmaster · 03-24-2006, 11:46 AM

I still think of the curious theolgoical similariy between the Baha'i faith and Manicheanism. Manicheanisms oneness of all relgions was even part of the comandments that Mani wrote that all relgions should be considered equal. Also curiously Mani's mother was persian royalty and as you know royalty has a very very good historical and genealogy sense of there past! So I must say it is very likely that bahaullah knew of Mani and Manicheanism. All you have to do is see how other royal families around the world are. They have a very good sense of there historical back ground and geneology going back hundreds and hundreds of year. Do any Baha'is agree?

lunamoth · 03-24-2006, 02:31 PM

Postmaster, perhaps you would like to take this conversation to the comparaive board as it seems you really woud like to discuss similarities and differences between these two religions.

Just a thought,
lunamoth

BruceDLimber · 03-24-2006, 04:28 PM

Hi, Bandit! :-)

You mentioned the fact that the great religions all differ, and Amy gave you the analogy of a single, constant wheel, but with different tires.

I think what will help here is to be aware that the Baha'i Faith makes a distinction between spritual teachings, which we view as constant and unchanging across religions (although sometimes expressed in different wordings), and social teachings, which are intentionally temporary and change from religion to religion!

Examples of spiritual teachings would include "you're here for a reason," "there is a God," "don't murder," etc..

Social teachings are laws such as prayer and fasting, marriage and divorce, administrative structure, and so on.

Only a new Divine Messenger is permitted to change social laws (meaning, of course, that God has changed them through the Messenger), but change them They do! (Good examples include Christ's expanding the law about adultery and abolishing the restrictions on the Sabbath, as recounted in the New Testament.)

Best, and do keep the questions coming! :-)

Bruce