Baptism

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by winner08

1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Jesus Christ came into the world to SAVE SINNERS (ALL men are sinners).

But infants are not.

[Quahom1]

Many are called, few are chosen. I find it ironic that those who believe God does all our thinking for us, and puts those thoughts and actions into our heads, are also the very same ones who try to convince others of this concept by attempting to override one's initial thoughts with their own sense of what is right and what is not.

Truth by imposition...

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

But infants are not.

Netti-Netti: Why would infants not be saved. Is it because they are not sinners. Try telling that to the people who believe that we All humans are born with the Sin that Adam laied at our feet. Yes that's right. some people well many many people belive we are born with the stain of sin on our heads. This is why we are baptized ehen we are babies. If I am not mistaken I think the catholic religion teaches this. I am not 100% sure but I believe it is so. Well we know babies do not sin they are innocent souls. and therefore I believe I don't have scripture to back it up this is just my opinion I believe they have a special place in God's heart in which they are saved. They will like all of us be ressurrected in the end and changed from their physical body to spirit. maby they will be special angles of the Lord. If I find some scriptures on this subject I will let you know. Im sure you will be looking foward to that. LOL

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by winner08

Netti-Netti: Why would infants not be saved. Is it because they are not sinners. Try telling that to the people who believe that we All humans are born with the Sin that Adam laied at our feet. Yes that's right. some people well many many people belive we are born with the stain of sin on our heads. This is why we are baptized ehen we are babies. If I am not mistaken I think the catholic religion teaches this. I am not 100% sure but I believe it is so. Well we know babies do not sin they are innocent souls. and therefore I believe I don't have scripture to back it up this is just my opinion I believe they have a special place in God's heart in which they are saved. They will like all of us be ressurrected in the end and changed from their physical body to spirit. maby they will be special angles of the Lord. If I find some scriptures on this subject I will let you know. Im sure you will be looking foward to that. LOL

Children before the age of ascention or reason, are excluded from being damned. They do not know any better. They are without guile. That is also Catholic in belief. Even Jesus made it clear that "children" had an advantage over adults when it came to heaven...

[Thomas]

Two things from a Catholic perspective:

1:
It is not doctrine that we baptise children because they have sinned. We baptise children to cure an inherited condition brought about by sin, not because of any sin imputed to the child by being born. Not to baptise children is the spiritual equivalent of not treating a genetic disorder.

2:
The grace conferred at baptism is not intrinsic to human nature, it transcends it. It is a grace that human nature cannot avail of itself without Divine assistance.

Thomas

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

So Catholic baptism isn't like the baptism that John the Baptist and Jesus's disciples performed, which stressed repentance?

Originally Posted by Thomas

Two things from a Catholic perspective:

1:
It is not doctrine that we baptise children because they have sinned. We baptise children to cure an inherited condition brought about by sin, not because of any sin imputed to the child by being born. Not to baptise children is the spiritual equivalent of not treating a genetic disorder.

2:
The grace conferred at baptism is not intrinsic to human nature, it transcends it. It is a grace that human nature cannot avail of itself without Divine assistance.

Thomas

So it is different from the baptism John the Baptist and Jesus's disciples performed.

[Thomas]

Hi Seattlegal —

Originally Posted by seattlegal

So it is different from the baptism John the Baptist and Jesus's disciples performed.

I would rather say theology has illuminated aspects of the Rite that were not immediately visible, but are nevertheless implicit.

Christian baptism is not purely the washing away of sin — it's an infusion of Divine Grace which actualises the possibility of a personal communion with the Divine that exists potentially within human nature — that's more than simply the forgiveness of sin.

Catholicism holds that human nature is 'deiform', that man was made to know God subjectively and not just objectively, but that the Divine Subjectivity — the sense of interior presence — was withdrawn in the face of the offence of the Fall.

It is this subjective knowing — Divine Immanence — which was lost. Objective knowing remained, as is obvious from the religious aspirations of man throughout history.

Repentance of itself is prior to and a prerequisite of baptism, in the same way that repentance is prior to confession (if one does not repent in one's heart, then the Sacrament is void — it's not a magical ritual). So baptism doesn't enable one to repent, it's a sign of a prior desire for repentance, and a sign of acceptance of repentance.

As the ontology of sin is an offence against God, repentance does not necessitate forgiveness, as you can offend your neighbour, apologise, but he is not required to accept your apology, to forgive and forget. That God always forgives is by virtue of the infinity of His mercy but it's not something we should take for granted.

As an act of repentance it assumes the axiom of faith that the Holy Spirit will come to the assistance of those who seek the life in Christ. So it performs two things: One is the washing away of sin ('ancestral sin' as the Orthodox call it), the forgiveness of the offence and allowing the person to continue with a 'clean sheet', as it were.

Implicit in the Christian community is the idea that in the forgiveness of sin the Father then 'opens communications' in and with the soul at the level of person — Divine Subjectivity — the Sermon of the Vine, for example, indeed the whole thrust of Our Lord's discourse at the Last Supper, and the Mystical Body of which St Paul teaches.

Baptism in the Catholic sense is not just the washing away of the ancestral stain, but by so doing the incorporation into that Mystical Body.

Thomas

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Children before the age of ascention or reason, are excluded from being damned. They do not know any better. They are without guile. That is also Catholic in belief. Even Jesus made it clear that "children" had an advantage over adults when it came to heaven...

Here we go again. damded. yes damded, but not for all enertity. There is no word in the original greek manuscript meaning forever and ever or all eternity. The word aion (ages) or age) one will be damded forever and ever translates as for an age and an age. Question why would a loving merciful God who says He loves and is fair in all things He does. Would judged and sentence anybody to eternal damnation. What is fair about that. Now God punishes and chastises only for us to learn and for correction. Not just to punish without no meanning. Like the fable hell where you are sentence forever and ever without any chance of redemption. It is so far out of God's charater. Just because billions believe in a certain thing dosen't mean it is true. It only means they are being decieved which is the devil's job. Many are called few are chosen. do you really think God would djust throw away billions of people whom He confesses He loves.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by winner08

Here we go again. damded. yes damded, but not for all enertity. There is no word in the original greek manuscript meaning forever and ever or all eternity. The word aion (ages) or age) one will be damded forever and ever translates as for an age and an age. Question why would a loving merciful God who says He loves and is fair in all things He does. Would judged and sentence anybody to eternal damnation. What is fair about that. Now God punishes and chastises only for us to learn and for correction. Not just to punish without no meanning. Like the fable hell where you are sentence forever and ever without any chance of redemption. It is so far out of God's charater. Just because billions believe in a certain thing dosen't mean it is true. It only means they are being decieved which is the devil's job. Many are called few are chosen. do you really think God would djust throw away billions of people whom He confesses He loves.

"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..." (Revelation 21:8)

Now, the Catholic church has this to say about non Christians:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." Pope Paul VI 1964

Finally: Jesus does speak of aeons (ages), and his term is "aeons eternal". That pretty much means forever...