Baptizement required?

Ghaniel · 01-08-2006, 09:38 PM

I have a question that I'm almost totally ignorant on...

Is baptizement in water required for salvation?
The Catholic Church believes that... I myself am not sure.

Is it really that important to immerse your flesh in H2O?

Why do I have faith and the Holy Spirit in me without having been baptized?

taijasi · 01-08-2006, 10:16 PM

Water is a symbol of the emotions (including passions, desires, cravings, etc.). Baptism reminds us of the need to purify the emotions, along with the body & mind. We must do this as part of an ongoing effort, so imho, the tradition of baptizing infants is fine ... a good reminder, and probably also helpful for adults.

Some groups use a few drops of water. Others insist on dunking you, and so I suppose it's only appropriate that they get the name ... Baptists!

Either way, it's symbolic. I have no doubt that there are many who live lives of utmost purity, yet have never been baptized as such.

andrew

Thomas · 01-08-2006, 11:58 PM

Is baptizement in water required for salvation?
No.

The Catholic Church believes that... I myself am not sure.
Not quite - the Catholic Church believes that baptism is an Initiation into the Catholic Faith and thus an engagement with the Holy Spirit. It is a requirement, but not a guarantee of salvation in itself.

Is it really that important to immerse your flesh in H2O?
The importance is, as has been said, not the outward act but the inward meaning. It is the entry into a different order of life, signifying being born 'of the spirit' and being 'buried in Christ' - it is entry into the Mystical Body of Christ, and the birth of Christ in the baptised.

Why do I have faith and the Holy Spirit in me without having been baptized?
That depends on what you have faith in, and how you perceive the Holy Spirit.

Thomas

Quahom1 · 01-09-2006, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Is baptizement in water required for salvation?
No.

The Catholic Church believes that... I myself am not sure.
Not quite - the Catholic Church believes that baptism is an Initiation into the Catholic Faith and thus an engagement with the Holy Spirit. It is a requirement, but not a guarantee of salvation in itself.

Is it really that important to immerse your flesh in H2O?
The importance is, as has been said, not the outward act but the inward meaning. It is the entry into a different order of life, signifying being born 'of the spirit' and being 'buried in Christ' - it is entry into the Mystical Body of Christ, and the birth of Christ in the baptised.

Why do I have faith and the Holy Spirit in me without having been baptized?
That depends on what you have faith in, and how you perceive the Holy Spirit.

Thomas

Quite true. During a rough time in my life I had a new born son, that no one would support me with concerning God. So in desperation, this catholic man took his baby boy to an Episcapal priest, to be baptised. The Priest agreed with my reasoning, and baptised him.

18 years later that issue came back. And instead of haunting me (for not doing so), it blessed me, when my son asked "Where are my baptism papers?".

Right here son...and he said quietly, "I am really part of God's family..."

All this time, he didn't realize the truth. (and it never dawn on me that he would consider it... dumm dad, dumm dad, dumm ass). But the papers revealed the truth of history.

What it doesn't reveal is that before I found a church that would baptise him, I took matters into my own hands and baptised him in the kitchen sink...

(for non catholic types, the baby isn't plunged under water. Water is merely poured over the forehead, and nowhere else). I never dreamed my son would ask about his "religious" past.

My point is that this was so important to my child (big boy of 20), that I thank God I made sure he had an heritage, that he could show.

You never know what kids think or are looking for...

He walked into the recruiting office for the Armed services, and when they asked him what religion he held, he gave them a certificate and said, "Catholic, by way of an Episcopalian..." but this is nothing new. I've spoken about this before in other threads.

v/r

Q

Faithfulservant · 01-09-2006, 03:10 AM

no I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation, however, I know that Jesus who was our model was baptized which tells me that He wants us to be baptized.. I believe the purpose of it is a public declaration of your faith. It lets everyone know that you are a member of the body of Christ.

lunamoth · 01-09-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Quite true. During a rough time in my life I had a new born son, that no one would support me with concerning God. So in desperation, this catholic man took his baby boy to an Episcapal priest, to be baptised. The Priest agreed with my reasoning, and baptised him.

18 years later that issue came back. And instead of haunting me (for not doing so), it blessed me, when my son asked "Where are my baptism papers?".

Right here son...and he said quietly, "I am really part of God's family..."

All this time, he didn't realize the truth. (and it never dawn on me that he would consider it... dumm dad, dumm dad, dumm ass). But the papers revealed the truth of history.

What it doesn't reveal is that before I found a church that would baptise him, I took matters into my own hands and baptised him in the kitchen sink...

(for non catholic types, the baby isn't plunged under water. Water is merely poured over the forehead, and nowhere else). I never dreamed my son would ask about his "religious" past.

My point is that this was so important to my child (big boy of 20), that I thank God I made sure he had an heritage, that he could show.

You never know what kids think or are looking for...

He walked into the recruiting office for the Armed services, and when they asked him what religion he held, he gave them a certificate and said, "Catholic, by way of an Episcopalian..." but this is nothing new. I've spoken about this before in other threads.

v/r

Q

Hi Q,

I never saw this story about your son's baptism--I find it quite moving.

I learned during the preparation for my daughters' baptisms that in fact any baptized person can perform a baptism in an 'emergency' situation (Anglican Book of Common Prayer). I believe your kitchen sink baptism alone was valid--although I can understand the desire to also have it done by a priest.

peace,
lunamoth

lunamoth · 01-09-2006, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

[Is it really that important to immerse your flesh in H2O?
The importance is, as has been said, not the outward act but the inward meaning. It is the entry into a different order of life, signifying being born 'of the spirit' and being 'buried in Christ' - it is entry into the Mystical Body of Christ, and the birth of Christ in the baptised.

And thus every baptized person is 'born again.'

peace,
lunamoth

Quahom1 · 01-09-2006, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Q,

I never saw this story about your son's baptism--I find it quite moving.

I learned during the preparation for my daughters' baptisms that in fact any baptized person can perform a baptism in an 'emergency' situation (Anglican Book of Common Prayer). I believe your kitchen sink baptism alone was valid--although I can understand the desire to also have it done by a priest.

peace,
lunamoth

I guess, being validated by a 'man of God', is very important to some, especially if the father is a young one, with a young one...whom he wishes to be validated...by God...particularly at troubling times.

Gotta go, and tend to my wife.

v/r

Q

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

I have a question that I'm almost totally ignorant on...

Is baptizement in water required for salvation?
The Catholic Church believes that... I myself am not sure.

Is it really that important to immerse your flesh in H2O?

Why do I have faith and the Holy Spirit in me without having been baptized?

individuals can be filled with the Holy Ghost before, during or sometime after water baptsim & so it is true in the scriptures also.
i still believe water baptism is a commandment from the Lord Jesus, a commandment from the Apostle Peter & that it should not be forbidden.

Ghaniel · 01-09-2006, 02:51 PM

Water is a symbol of the emotions (including passions, desires, cravings, etc.).

Is that relevant? Did Jesus say that water is a symbol of emotions?

You see folks, a Catholic I've spoken to said that baptizement is a requirement to achieve salvation. Not necessarily just as a Catholic inauguration ritual. And he gave me the impression that unless I baptize I cannot come to Heaven. No matter if I allready have faith and the Holy Spirit.

wil · 01-09-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

i still believe water baptism is a commandment from the Lord Jesus

didn't John say he baptized w/water and one that follows will baptize w/spirit?

where is baptism a commandment by Jesus?

Seems he blessed and healed many w/o water...

lunamoth · 01-09-2006, 04:26 PM

A few brief Gospel passages as a point of reference. It seems to me that while Jesus endorsed baptism by water with His own baptism, He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire (no mention of water).

Quote:

Matthew 3:11 NIV
"I baptize you with [ Or in] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Quote:

Mark 1:8 NIV
I baptize you with [ Or in] water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Quote:

Luke 3:16 NIV
John answered them all, "I baptize you with [ Or in] water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

peace,
lunamoth

Thomas · 01-09-2006, 04:28 PM

You see folks, a Catholic I've spoken to said that baptizement is a requirement to achieve salvation.
It's a matter of degree.

Firstly, 'Jesus saves' as the saying goes, and Jesus can save whomsoever He chooses, regardless.

As the CCC says: "we believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."
Faustus of Reiz De Spiritu Sancto

Not necessarily just as a Catholic inauguration ritual.
Baptism is not just or only a ritual - rather Catholics believe both in the formulae, but in the realities they express.

Other faith/traditions have other formulae in which they believe, and express the realities of their faith.

No matter if I allready have faith and the Holy Spirit.
Well, now we are on uncertain ground.

I have absolute faith that before I sleep tonight my cat will stand accusingly beside his food bowl, and that my daughter will give me attitude - but neither of these will secure my salvation.

The question must be 'faith' in what?

And the subsequent question must be, what does this faith call you to do?

Thomas

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

where is baptism a commandment by Jesus?

Jesus in Matt.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Peter in Acts
10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Bandit · 01-09-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

Water is a symbol of the emotions (including passions, desires, cravings, etc.).

Is that relevant? Did Jesus say that water is a symbol of emotions?

You see folks, a Catholic I've spoken to said that baptizement is a requirement to achieve salvation. Not necessarily just as a Catholic inauguration ritual. And he gave me the impression that unless I baptize I cannot come to Heaven. No matter if I allready have faith and the Holy Spirit.

people come up with all kinds of things for this. yes, no , maybe, when, how, this happens-that happens....
i have always heard it from catholics & some protestants also & that it is for the remission of sin. but through history there have been many different opinions within each denomination.

so do you go with what people say or go with what the bible says?
it is real simple. IMO-

if you dont want to be baptised then dont be baptised.