Big Bang and Expanding of Universe

[Vajradhara]

Namaste emet,

thank you for the post.

i think that you may have misunderstood my response, i was asking how it was that one theory amongst the various ones was determined to be correct amongst Muslim scientists.

my objection is an objection to their methodology not their acceptance of particular theories.

metta,

~v

[Tao_Equus]

I find it more than mere coincidence that the two religions that most like to claim some scientific insight are the two big fundamentalist groups of Islam and Evangelical Christianity. It is part of their sales pitch, their paradigm must be ineffable at any cost, except reason.

Listening to the Muslims and Creationists you see this glassy, impenetrable mind set that in its excitement at its own misplaced cleverness is incapable of reason. They are all really preaching to themselves. And I wonder why they struggle so hard to fool themselves.

I get tired of the "I cant see" or "I do not understand" of such minds. I understand, I believe, why people are religious. And all its causes are evolutionary and social.... and with no evidence to support any supernatural causation. So I say now to the next Muslim or Evangelical that I do know your religion. And I know it to be a product of people not Gods. Saying "god is great" or "praise the lord" is utterly meaningless gibberish. There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image.


tao

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I find it more than mere coincidence that the two religions that most like to claim some scientific insight are the two big fundamentalist groups of Islam and Evangelical Christianity. It is part of their sales pitch, their paradigm must be ineffable at any cost, except reason.

Listening to the Muslims and Creationists you see this glassy, impenetrable mind set that in its excitement at its own misplaced cleverness is incapable of reason. They are all really preaching to themselves. And I wonder why they struggle so hard to fool themselves.

I get tired of the "I cant see" or "I do not understand" of such minds. I understand, I believe, why people are religious. And all its causes are evolutionary and social.... and with no evidence to support any supernatural causation. So I say now to the next Muslim or Evangelical that I do know your religion. And I know it to be a product of people not Gods. Saying "god is great" or "praise the lord" is utterly meaningless gibberish. There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image.


tao

Then there are the religiously rationalists, who sound exactly like the other two "extremists"...really.

I'm serious Tao. The above paragraph sounds like it came right out of one of their pamphlets, just insert different nouns...

You can't understand them, and they can't understand you.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Then there are the religiously rationalists, who sound exactly like the other two "extremists"...really.

I'm serious Tao. The above paragraph sounds like it came right out of one of their pamphlets, just insert different nouns...

You can't understand them, and they can't understand you.

But only I speak the truth!! (slaps down "origin of species" on the lectern").

[greymare]

between you and me, Tao, (and the garden post) sometimes, IT just sneaks up on you and slaps you real hard in the head. (happened to a friend of a friend of mine. LOL. )

[Bruno's logic]

There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image. -Tao

I hold to the thought that existence is infinite… That existence is the one thing existing wherein all things come from and will always exist as part of the motion, changing dimensions and waves of the one thing existing…

Having said that, entities that become self aware and begin to understand the physics of existence will (when they survive long enough) eventually become masters of the universe/dimension that they exist in.

So, along this line of thought, it is entirely possible that there exists a master of the physics of this universe who is interested or concerned with the goings on of our little planet Earth.

While it is true that Humans have amazing imaginations, it is also true, that everything existing makes perfect sense to a master, whether or not this information can be explained to even the most ignorant entities is up for debate .

So, it is possible that there exist Godlike entities, some, because of their experiences, are filled with compassion, understanding and love,
and some are not….
I just hope that the master of this universe ….. is a loving God…
I pray that it is so….

I hold to the thought that there is more to this existence than even the oldest entity will ever know…

In an ever changing existence where Gods may come into being and cease to be, where big bangs are often heard and where imaginations run wild there is only one thing that never changes and that is; the one infinite space existing that all things exist in and is a part of.
~Bruno

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by greymare

between you and me, Tao, (and the garden post) sometimes, IT just sneaks up on you and slaps you real hard in the head. (happened to a friend of a friend of mine. LOL. )

There is actually a big difference between something and nothing. People make their belief choices for their own reasons, ( though they may even be made for them, especially if they are brainwiped early enough). But coming to the conclusion, after many years, that there is not any truth in the teachings of the churches is very different to swallowing their dogma. You do not believe in nothing lightly, or at least I do not. I may play along with the branding at times, but I most definitely do not think no belief to be a religion in itself. The comfort it gives to religionists that I am susceptible to their infection too is theirs not mine. And from what I already know I can say with great confidence they are welcome to my death bed to hear me continue to insist there is no God.

tao

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There is actually a big difference between something and nothing. People make their belief choices for their own reasons, ( though they may even be made for them, especially if they are brainwiped early enough). But coming to the conclusion, after many years, that there is not any truth in the teachings of the churches is very different to swallowing their dogma. You do not believe in nothing lightly, or at least I do not. I may play along with the branding at times, but I most definitely do not think no belief to be a religion in itself. The comfort it gives to religionists that I am susceptible to their infection too is theirs not mine. And from what I already know I can say with great confidence they are welcome to my death bed to hear me continue to insist there is no God.

tao

Well, your solid belief is refreshing. At least there is no doubt where you stand.

And as an aside. I too believe in evolution. The data is massive, and can not be denied. But there is also no doubt in my mind that someone designed the whole thing. But instead of calling it Intelligent design, I rather look at it as "BioLogos".

Religion may be quite flawed, however faith in one greater than self is not.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Well, your solid belief is refreshing. At least there is no doubt where you stand.

And as an aside. I too believe in evolution. The data is massive, and can not be denied. But there is also no doubt in my mind that someone designed the whole thing. But instead of calling it Intelligent design, I rather look at it as "BioLogos".

Religion may be quite flawed, however faith in one greater than self is not.

Its the language Q. "faith in one greater than self". You wear a uniform, you are used to the hierarchical system that church and service installs on the psyche. There is nothing I have seen that points to anyone having the ability to make an informed opinion that there is either a "one" or a many. But the way mankind organizes itself there is always a boss. And when we run out of bosses we create a bigger one, to carry the can or take the credit. Whatever this universe really is I find it mind bogglingly unlikely that it was created for man. So all these anthropocentric notions of God just make no sense if we are searching for truth. They are all tainted with self, we have made God in our own image not the other way round. The reason I say with such confidence that there is no God is because I see no sign of one, not one single shred of evidence to support such a theory. I see mankind's own ego continue to invent ideologies firmly based on self but not one that makes the least bit effort to declare this fact. There may be god(s) or creators but they too must have had their gods or creators, where does it end. You cannot get something from nothing. My belief is these are questions we can never hope to answer. And even if we could they would only create more questions. The gods we have created are not real. They are the imaginary friends of a species in its infancy. We are approaching, I hope, our adolescence and I sincerely hope we can leave these notions behind. Not because I want to deprive people of the very real comfort faith can bring to some, but because the price we pay in death and suffering is too great a price to pay. Religions divide more than they unite and I want to see the unity of man take shape. For I believe the alternative could mean its destruction. Until we remove the psychological acceptance of lies from the religions we cannot remove them from our politics and it is imperative that we do. We have a Global Village and we are out of balance with nature. Without honesty and greater reliance on observable data, or truth, its current unsustainability will become critical. Religions are despite the efforts of a few are in opposition to the unity we now urgently require. And religions are too susceptible to hijacking by the kinds of people we least need having any power. It is irrelevant if there is or is not a creator. We are the custodians of our own destiny and its high time we faced up to that responsibility and stopped delegating it to some self created mythos.



tao

[Bruno's logic]

Well said Tao....

I want to see the unity of man take shape. For I believe the alternative could mean its destruction. Until we remove the psychological acceptance of lies from the religions we cannot remove them from our politics and it is imperative that we do. We have a Global Village and we are out of balance with nature. Without honesty and greater reliance on observable data, or truth, its current unsustainability will become critical. Religions are despite the efforts of a few are in opposition to the unity we now urgently require. And religions are too susceptible to hijacking by the kinds of people we least need having any power. It is irrelevant if there is or is not a creator. We are the custodians of our own destiny and its high time we faced up to that responsibility and stopped delegating it to some self created mythos. (-Tao)

Though I am not an atheist, for I cannot rule out that there is a god or a creator or whatever, I too cannot see proof positive that a God or many gods does indeed exist. Humanity is naturally compassionate and kind, loving and generous we don't need religion to produce these traits...

If we are lucky and survive another hundred years I have a feeling that the phrase; "repent the time is at hand" will be replaced with "rejoice we made it." For it is only logical that religion (imagination) will be replaced with wisdom (common sence).
~Bruno

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. (Max Planck, 1920)

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man, 1871)

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Bruno's logic

Well said Tao....




Though I am not an atheist, for I cannot rule out that there is a god or a creator or whatever, I too cannot see proof positive that a God or many gods does indeed exist. Humanity is naturally compassionate and kind, loving and generous we don't need religion to produce these traits...

If we are lucky and survive another hundred years I have a feeling that the phrase; "repent the time is at hand" will be replaced with "rejoice we made it." For it is only logical that religion (imagination) will be replaced with wisdom (common sence).
~Bruno

Thank you

And I hope we do make it!!


tao

[greymare]

well Tao, old buddy (LOL) I am happy to have "religion" in my life, if for nothing else, we wouldnt have this forum and I wouldnt have met all these interesting and wonderful people. So for what its worth,thats my two bobs worth.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by greymare

well Tao, old buddy (LOL) I am happy to have "religion" in my life, if for nothing else, we wouldnt have this forum and I wouldnt have met all these interesting and wonderful people. So for what its worth,thats my two bobs worth.

And it is worth a lot more than 2 bob

[quakeyjase]

I don't believe in string theory (and so far it does have to be a belief system lol), but I think the account of the big bang is fairly consistent with the creation of a finite universe.

What worries me about claims that it is all predicted in the Qur'an is that this is completely with hindsight. In other words, what does the Qur'an say about science that hasn't been already worked out? Like quantum gravity for example? God knows science is desparate enough for ideas on this!

The unrolling of the heavens does bear a slight similarity to some of the stuff about membranes, but I don't really count that as science as it makes no falsifiable predictions as yet.

peace and blessings,

qj

[islamis4u]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Just because something is accepted doesn't make it right. The truth is we don't know for fact, and theory is just that, an unproven point of view.

It can't even be considered a postulate. +--+*-+

Is it sound? Yes, as sound as any other theory put out their. Is there proof? perhaps, but we haven't secured it yet. So we keep searching...

look then their from seeing from your point of view we can't prove any theory because we can't go back to time see if its right or wrong then we have to go with what is accepted ....