Big Brother in America

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Tao,
Do you seriously find, think, or believe that you are just a machine?

Just a machine? You speak as though a machine cannot be beautiful, elegant and a marvel to watch and operate. But essentially yes I think we are just machines. Our bedrooms and maternity hospitals are our factories. Our schools and universities where we are programmed. The workplace where we perform the tasks the fat controllers demand we do in return for a share of resources. That we are capable of complex independent thought of an abstract nature that gives us the arts, literature, the sciences etc does not mean we are not machines. In the short time we have had micro processors we have strived to create machines that are capable of doing the same and we are begining to succeed. 100 years from now we will doubtless have machines that far far surpass the greatest human capabilities of thought.

Each of us likes to feel as though we are a unique individual and in some way special. And we are on many levels. But when put in comparison to every other individual very few of us ever have an original thought or idea or contribute in a unique way to our holistic purpose, if we indeed have one. We are machines that eat, sleep, fart, work and reproduce. We perform these tasks no differently than ants or bees, for survival, adaptation where required and growth. The capacity to observe and scrutinize our own behaviour may be unique but does not interfere in any meaningful way with those simple hardwired programs. Our hives are huge now. Whether they be defined in national, political or religious terms the populations that support them are vast. And collectively they behave in that same machine like way. But machines like you and I are lucky. We are lucky enough to be born into hives that not only enjoy the greatest and cheapest supply of resources in history, but enjoy, at least to some extent, the ability to shape our own programming within the hive. Being a machine is a fact of life, but does not have to be derogatory or limiting.

Tao

[Pathless]

Tao, I profoundly disagree with your diagnosis. We are not like machines at all, although we have been modeled after them ever since Copernicus and Newton. We have been made to work like machines, although we are not machines. Such highly compartmentalized, scheduled, repetitive work has brought the human, which is not a machine, to the point of breakdown, even to the point of mechanical social breakdown. Everywhere capitalism venerates machines and banks, overworking the complex, physical, emotional, biological, spiritual--but not mechanized--human. All around us are people enmeshed in the fantasy of cybernetics, hooked up to the internet all day long (even as I write this, my fingers grow cables and input/output devices), cell phones that rest on the ear, personal data accessesories, ipods that pump in personal digital soundtracks. The machine influence is all around, mechanically subduing the biological, natural human.

Such a shame, then, when the human becomes convinced the she is a machine, even a beautiful one.

Logging off Pathless: 10:28:04/2.11.2008
/end transmission
/

[Tao_Equus]

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

We cannot hope to change entrenched mindsets but we can talk to the young where we know they hang out. They intuitively sense the system just wants them to be machines and they hate it. They are open and receptive to looking at what is truly on the agenda of those that seek to control them, and once faced with it they react against it.. So I have hope.

So then are you the elder entrenched mindset who sees people as machines, or the youth who hates the system that thinks of them as machines?

If you come work with me for a bit, I think you will see a big difference between a person and a machine. Although, it does sound like you are making headway by conversing with children.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

So then are you the elder entrenched mindset who sees people as machines, or the youth who hates the system that thinks of them as machines?

If you come work with me for a bit, I think you will see a big difference between a person and a machine. Although, it does sound like you are making headway by conversing with children.

As fine well you know there are different contexts at play here. You sought to go down an avenue and asked for qualification which I provided. But the context of the post you quote above is quite different and I know you are well aware of that so I'l leave it at that.

That's the second time you have suggested I come work with you. You must be desperate for help!!

Tao

[cyberpi]

Tao, did you have an answer in any context:
Are you the elder entrenched mindset who sees people as machines, or the youth who hates the system that thinks of them as machines?

What are the different contexts when you might be one or the other... person or machine?

[path_of_one]

I don't think living beings are like machines. Machines were created by humans and so are newer to the scene than living things. Hence, machines are like living beings, not the other way 'round.

I would put forth that viewing living beings (human or otherwise) as machines is an idea that is relatively recent in human history and almost entirely Western-centric. It isn't a cross-cultural universal, or even that common in other cultures.

Whenever I see some Western-centric notion argued as the way things really are, it comes across as arrogant to me. I don't see why the rest of the world and their ideas on life are any less valid. Those philosophies seemed to work for a long time for them (for some societies for thousands of years), so if all are equally useful and none can be proven correct... you see where I am going with this?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Tao, did you have an answer in any context:
Are you the elder entrenched mindset who sees people as machines, or the youth who hates the system that thinks of them as machines?

What are the different contexts when you might be one or the other... person or machine?

Both and neither. Happy? I guess not. But your question is rather foolish. Do you really believe me to be an elder, (presumably working for the bigger machine), with an entrenched mindset? Really? Or a youth? No, I think not. So come back to me with a valid question.


As for your second question I shall quote yourself back at you.

My life takes meaning by placing Faith in others. If my kids want to play soccer, then I become a soccer dad. If my wife wants to dance, then I become a dance partner. If my employer wants me to do XYZ, then I become an expert at XYZ. If God wants me to do and become something, then I am going to do and become it. The meaning to a large degree is supplied by whoever I place FAITH in, and that is not as a slave but as a servant. Likewise my children do a lot of things that I ask, and my wife, and the people who work with me.

As you see here the machine you can perform many tasks, (each of which can be represented as context). If its any consolation you seem to be a very attentive machine

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't think living beings are like machines. Machines were created by humans and so are newer to the scene than living things. Hence, machines are like living beings, not the other way 'round.

I would put forth that viewing living beings (human or otherwise) as machines is an idea that is relatively recent in human history and almost entirely Western-centric. It isn't a cross-cultural universal, or even that common in other cultures.

Whenever I see some Western-centric notion argued as the way things really are, it comes across as arrogant to me. I don't see why the rest of the world and their ideas on life are any less valid. Those philosophies seemed to work for a long time for them (for some societies for thousands of years), so if all are equally useful and none can be proven correct... you see where I am going with this?

But you are a Christian are you not? You believe God is the creator, the maker? If we are created, then by definition we are unequivocally machines.

Tao

[Pathless]

More disturbing happenings, this time a stepping up of Patriot Act proportions, the stripping of more civil liberites and the steepening of survelleince to profiling proportions:

Z Magazine - Ideological Profiling

Originally Posted by Nikki Alexander

On October 23, the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 passed 404 to 6 in the House (HR 1955). Its Senate companion (S.1959) is under evaluation by the Senate Committee of Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

...

The introductory summary to this monograph highlights the “homegrown terrorists” who “pose an evolving threat to corporate interests…. In addition to the terrorist threats posed by al Qaeda and both associated and independent radical jihadists, a growing groundswell of domestically inspired radicalism has emerged that appears to be based on the spreading phenomenon of anti-globalization (AG). The AG movement has had an impact on at least three homegrown entities—all of which have demonstrated, in varying degrees, an explicit penchant for violence and civilian-directed action.

“Anarchists, who resonate with the claim that international trade and commerce are, in fact, a mask designed to hide and covertly advance U.S. global economic, cultural and political power.

“Far-right extremists, who reject the loss of individual identity associated with international movements of people, commodities and money; who oppose the concentration of power that globalization entails; and who argue that globalization is an American-led conspiracy conducted by and for the benefit of Jewish capitalists.

“Radical environmentalists, who now routinely denigrate corporate power and capitalism (and the unrestrained discretionary spending that they entail) as posing the single greatest threat to the planet and its life.


“A notable common thread in many of the trends is an increased risk for the private sector. This increase arises from the changes in the operational environment because of the Global War on Terror; the hardening of government facilities, which is shifting risk to softer targets; the rise of extremists motivated by AG and therefore hostile to corporate power; and the increased focus by al Qaeda on attacks that yield magnified economic consequences.”

...

The dragnet of individuals encompassed by RAND’s perceived “evolving threats to corporate interests” includes just about everyone who isn’t in favor of war, corporate globalization, destruction of the earth’s biosphere, and trampling human rights. In Chapter Four these homegrown terrorists are described in detail, citing the following themes as major concerns of this “radical fringe”:

• International debt relief; civil rights; opposition to corporate power; socioeconomic and political dislocations; capitalism’s insatiable quest for profit; destruction of the world’s ecology, indigenous cultures and individual welfare; illegitimate and unjust concentrations of public, state and private power; capitalist indifference to the needs of the weak and dispossessed.
• International trade and commerce as a mask designed to hide and covertly advance US global economic, cultural and political power.
• Aversion to harm inflicted on animals and the biosphere; preserving ‘Mother Earth’ from rapacious degradation and exploitation; preservation of the wilderness; restoring destroyed ecosystems.
• Corporate greed is the greatest threat to the planet and its life; multinational companies are guilty of exploitative labor practices, union busting and human rights violations in the developing world.

Blechhh...

Z Magazine - Ideological Profiling

That this bill passed by such a strong margin in the House is truly frightening. I would encourage anyone who is concerned about civil rights, human rights, environmental issues, or well really any issue of morality or conscience to contact your Senator and urge them to oppose the passing of this bill into law.

For those of you who fancy living in a police state under martial law, you may do nothing.

[wil]

The EU is considering requiring photos, fingerprints and iris scans for all intl. travelers...

The US is up in arms about this despite the fact that we require photos and fingerprints of intl. travelers now...

Somehow I think a gov't has the right to determine by whatever means who is entering and leaving their country, and the people choose to go to that country or not.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As you see here the machine you can perform many tasks, (each of which can be represented as context).

If I drive my car to the destination you provide, that does not mean I am a car, and that does not mean that I am your car. If I become a soccer dad that does not mean I am a mechanical soccer machine, and that does not mean that I am my kid's mechanical soccer machine. If I become a dance partner, that does not mean I am a dance machine, and that does not mean that I am my wife's dance machine. If I become an expert at XYZ for an employer, that does not mean I am an XYZ machine, and that does not mean I am someone's XYZ machine. If in someone's eyes I am just a car, or a soccer machine, or a dance machine, or an XYZ machine, then I may occasionally choose to disappoint them. Afterall, it seems that I disappoint you. To disagree. To disobey. Does a machine choose whether or not to disappoint, disagree, or disobey?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But you are a Christian are you not? You believe God is the creator, the maker? If we are created, then by definition we are unequivocally machines.

If God creates my car and the physics, does that mean that I am the car, or the physics? If God creates a destination, and I place Faith in him and go there, does that make me a car, the physics, or the destination? The flesh is like a car. The flesh is a tool. Are you the flesh, or the person who drives your flesh?

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But you are a Christian are you not? You believe God is the creator, the maker? If we are created, then by definition we are unequivocally machines.

Tao

I don't see how my personal beliefs have anything to do with the point I made as an anthropologist- a point about the historical and cultural specificity of seeing living beings as machines. You're arguing a tangent rather than directly responding to my point.

That said, I'm a Christian and a Druid. Yes, I believe God is the Creator, but I also believe God is the Creation. I'm panentheist.

So, no- in my view, we are not machines, and neither are any other living beings. I don't priviledge humans as being substantially different from other life, though they have their distinctive traits (namely, religion/philosophy and art). But then, I'm a person that feels I have conversations with tree spirits (not to mention a variety of animals) and I see non-human living things as "other kinds of people."

We are thought-forms of God that reside in amazing packages made up of recycled stardust.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Pathless

More disturbing happenings, this time a stepping up of Patriot Act proportions, the stripping of more civil liberites and the steepening of survelleince to profiling proportions:

Z Magazine - Ideological Profiling

Here is a link to the bill that is being considered by the Senate, so that we may all have a look and draw our own conclusions and opinions about it, independent of what any media might tell us.

Much of the excerpt in my previous post quoted the RAND corporation's monograph, which was a catalyst in the formation of this "Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007". The language of the bill is different. I am going to refrain from commenting for now.

[flowperson]

Unreasonable fear of the future has destroyed more civilizations that can be counted. When it is amplified and legalized into everyday life as it has been these past few years, it indicates deep troubles in the basic structures of governance. Another Bill/Bandaid ain't gonna take away the unreasonable fears.

Mi Dos Centavos .

flow....