Birth of the Baha'u'llah

[arthra]

You can find a reference to it as follows I think...maybe someone has a more refined answer...

Al‑Hujub wa Khulasatu 'l‑Kutub (The Veils and Quintessence of Books), containing a study of the ayah: "Then thrust him into a chain the length of which is seventy cubits" (69:32), an expla­nation of the saying of the Prophet, "There are seventy thousand veils of light and darkness before God...", and a comparison of these two statements. Such a comparison presents considerable difficulties, especially with regard to the whole sum and its parts, with regard to the parallel drawn between the Qur'an and the Prophetic traditions and with regard to the phrases "a thousand years," "five thousand years" and "three hundred thousand years"; such metaphors are similar to the statement of one of the great shaykhs: "I am two years younger than my Lord", and that of another: "Between myself and my Lord there is no differ­ence except that I come first in the state of slavery."

Source:

Inner Secrets of the Path

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Scott:

Hope all is well.

Can the Bahais produce any documentary proof from any Shiite book for the saying quoted above.

Regards
Imran

With many thanks to my friend Kazeh Fananapazir:

The Hadith attributed to the Imam Ali: I am two years younger than my master.



I can find some reference to it at http://www.al-islam.org/innersecretsofthepath/1.htm

but would like proper provenance if available.



Thanks in advance,

Scott




The Hadith is quoted:
In number One
In the Bih.aarul-Anwaar [=Oceans of Lights] by Mulla Muh.ammad Baaqir al-Majlisi in his 38th Volume

ÈÍÇÑ ÇáÇäæÇÑ : 38

after quoting the Hadith [ana as.gharu min Rabbee be-sanatyan] the author wonders if this is a reference to the passing away of the Imam ‘Ali two years younger than Muh.ammad His Master.
والحق أنه قبض عليه السلام بعد ما دخل في السنة الرابعة والستين كما ان النبى صلوات الله عليه قبض وقد دخل في السنة السادسة والستين ولذلك يقول عن نفسه عليه السلام ( أنا أصغر من ربى بسنتين ) يعنى عن استاذه ومعلمه محمد صلوات الله عليه

It is quoted again
Here:

In Sayyid H.aydar al-Amuli’s *Nas.s.sun-Nus.suus.* = ana aqallu min Rabbee be-Sanatayn *I am younger than my Lord by two years* also in the same text there is this: laysa baynee wa bayna Rabbee farqun [= There is no difference between Me and My Lord], illaa innee taqaddamtu bil-‘ubuudiyyat [= except that I have priority in servitude]

Sayyid H.aydar al-Amuli exponent of Ibn ‘Arabi died 787 AH/1385 AD [In fact in his major work, the Jami' al-asrar (Compendium of Divine Mysteries), Amuli's main intention is to show that real Sufism and Shi'ism are the same.[ See H. Corbin's introduction to Sayyid Haydar Amuli, La Philosophie Shi'ite, Tehran-Paris, 1969.]

السيّد حيدر ا لآملي*ّ في* مقدّمات* كتاب* «نصّ النصوص*» ص* 10 : بالشكل* التالي* : كقولهم* : أنَا أَقَلُّ مِنْ رَبِّي* بِسَنَتَيْنِ ، وقولهم* : لَيسَ بَيْنِي* وَبَيْنَ رَبِّي* فَرْقٌ إلاَّ أَ نِّي* تَقَدَّمْتُ بِالعُبُودِيَّةِ
کتاب معر�ة الله / المجلد الثالث/ القسم الثامن: وحدة الوجود، إثبات أصالة الوجود و إبطال أصالة الماهیة، بسیط الحقیقة کل الاشیاء

and again
کتاب الله* شناسي / جلد سوم / قسمت نهم: اثبات اصالة الوجود، ردّ اصالة الماهیه، دلیل وحدت موجود و ردّ شبهات آن، وجود واجب الوجود


The DAWN-BREAKERS---Chapter I

The Bab, whose name was Ali-Muhammad, was born in Shiraz , on the first of Muharram, in the year 1235 A.H. He was the descendant of a house renowned for its nobility, which traced its origin to Muhammad Himself. His father, Siyyid Muhammad-Rida, as well as His mother, were descendants of the Prophet, and belonged to families of recognised standing. The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the saying attributed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful: "I am two years younger than my Lord." The mystery of this utterance, however, remained unrevealed except to those who sought and recognised the truth of the new Revelation. It was He, the Bab, who, in His first, His most weighty and exalted Book, revealed this passage concerning Baha'u'llah: "O Thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed Myself wholly for Thee; I have consented to be cursed for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto Me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!"

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

With many thanks to my friend Kazeh Fananapazir:
The Hadith attributed to the Imam Ali: I am two years younger than my master.

Hi Scott:

Many thanks to you and your friend for the reference. It is in the footnote of Behar vol 38, page 278.

In an earlier post, you had mentioned that this tradition is a fulfilment of the prophecy of the Mahdi since Bab and Bahaullah were separated by 2 years in BIRTH. This inference is not correct.

Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years.

So if this tradition were to be applicable to Bab and Bahaullah as the measures are different - one is about being seperated by 2 years in birth - the other is being separated by 2 years in age. In fact the measure of being separated by age does not apply to Bab and Bahaullah for the difference in their ages was more than 2 years (Bab died early, while Bahaullah lived much longer).

Secondly, nowhere does the tradition mention that it is a prophecy for the Mahdi. Even Allamah Majlisi clarifies that it is an explanation to the difference in the ages of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali so that the tradition may not be misinterpreted.

Thirdly, what could be the reason that the Bahais are happy to acknowledge one tradition from amongst thousands in Beharul Anwar and that too which appears in the footnote of volume 38. I will urge you and your friend to refer to volume 51, 52 and 53 of Behar which are about the prophecies about the Mahdi wherein one will find traditions about the Mahdi from 11 Imams and the Holy Prophet of Islam. I have quoted these traditions extensively on my web site. I also have a section of the Bab v/s the Mahdi of Islam which uses traditions from Behar to raise questions about the credibility of the claims of the Bab.

Is'nt it ironical that one tradition which may "appear" remotely appealing to the Bahais is quoted in all their books including Dawn Breakers. Yet when the issue of traditions is brought up, we are told that traditions could be wrong or altered.

Warm regards as always
Imran

[arthra]

A couple of things Imran is that (1) we Baha'is have more than one Hadith to turn to and I think by now you are probably aware of this ... (2) there is the whole cultural movement in Shiah Islam that anticipates the Mahdi and the Qa'im and history shows that this expectation was particularly strong in the early nineteenth century in Persia and gave rise to Shaykhism of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim so this was milieu where the early Babis arose from.

Books have been written about the expected Qa'im but they are mostly if Farsi or Arabic and you are also aware of these but they are mostly not available in English.

And since you've mentioned your site again which I have also responded to you that we regard as a prejudiced and biased source I would think by now you would suggest a more impartial, perhaps more academically accepted one.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

A couple of things Imran is that (1) we Baha'is have more than one Hadith to turn to and I think by now you are probably aware of this ... (2) there is the whole cultural movement in Shiah Islam that anticipates the Mahdi and the Qa'im and history shows that this expectation was particularly strong in the early nineteenth century in Persia and gave rise to Shaykhism of Shaykh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim so this was milieu where the early Babis arose from.

Books have been written about the expected Qa'im but they are mostly if Farsi or Arabic and you are also aware of these but they are mostly not available in English.

And since you've mentioned your site again which I have also responded to you that we regard as a prejudiced and biased source I would think by now you would suggest a more impartial, perhaps more academically accepted one.

- Art

Dear Art:

Thank you for your response.

I dont know how your points were connected to what point I had made - which was about the tradition of Imam Ali. Nevertheless, I will respond.

It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

Lastly, you can have your own criteria on whether any web site is prejudiced or not. However I can say with confidence that any web site that questions a concept or a thought process need not be prejudiced - check out whether any of the references from Bahai books are actually there or not or whether they were manufactured. I have mantained for long that if any reference is found to be incorrect, I will be happy to change it.

Warm regards, as always
Imran

[arthra]

Imran:

It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

My reply:

Any time we discuss traditions they should be primarily available as sources for examination but there are some which apparently are accepted by Shiahs and used by them which Baha'is also have been aware of and which no doubt as a student you are also aware and among them are these:

When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission

Ithbat al-hudat Vol. 7, p. 110.

I don't have direct access to these books and they are not that readily available so discussing them is "third hand" but considering the Hadith above it would seem that a new religion is implied in the above. We've discussed this previously.

Imran:

As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

My reply:

As a student of the Baha'i Faith for so long, you should know this is not the whole story... The priority for Baha'is has been to make available the Writings of Baha'u'llah... The Writings of the Bab are not all labelled as "alterations or forgeries" but it takes an involved process to make these available as translations... There were cases where some of the Writings of the Bab were intercepted by His enemies and altered and some were inerpolated by others...considering that even possessing such Writings could merit imprisonment or execution they were also not in the best of conditions having to be concealed in damp places or cranies in walls.

Imran:

Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

My reply:

It is cultural as defined as a religious movement when we are discussing the expectation of the Qa'im.

Imran:

I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

My reply:

The issue is that the direct sources are not that available as above.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran:
It will nice to know which "traditions" are accepted by the Bahais. And also more importantly, what are the relevant criteria for the same. As I had mentioned, there are 3 volumes of Beharul Anwar about the Mahdi which detail his genealogy, birth, occultation etc. Yet we are confronted with one tradition which appears in the footnote of volume 38 as a proof for the Mahdi. Why are the rest of these traditions in Beharul Anwar (probably more than 500) not accepted? Is it because they are contrary to the belief of the Bab as the Mahdi?

My reply:

Any time we discuss traditions they should be primarily available as sources for examination but there are some which apparently are accepted by Shiahs and used by them which Baha'is also have been aware of and which no doubt as a student you are also aware and among them are these:

When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission

Ithbat al-hudat Vol. 7, p. 110.

I don't have direct access to these books and they are not that readily available so discussing them is "third hand" but considering the Hadith above it would seem that a new religion is implied in the above. We've discussed this previously.

Imran:

As a student of the Bahai faith for long, I am not surprised by this as I myself have raised the issue of the books of the Bab wherein only "selected" writings of the Bab are available. The rest are labelled as alterations or forgeries.

My reply:

As a student of the Baha'i Faith for so long, you should know this is not the whole story... The priority for Baha'is has been to make available the Writings of Baha'u'llah... The Writings of the Bab are not all labelled as "alterations or forgeries" but it takes an involved process to make these available as translations... There were cases where some of the Writings of the Bab were intercepted by His enemies and altered and some were inerpolated by others...considering that even possessing such Writings could merit imprisonment or execution they were also not in the best of conditions having to be concealed in damp places or cranies in walls.

Imran:

Secondly, the belief of the Mahdi in Islam , particularly Shiite Islam is not "cultural" as you have mentioned. It is an integral part of Shiite Islam. The Mahdi was spoken about by the Holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) and then by the succeeding Imams. When you say cultural, you make it sound as if it was something that "just came up", which is not correct.

My reply:

It is cultural as defined as a religious movement when we are discussing the expectation of the Qa'im.

Imran:

I could not understand what was the point about the books being available only in Farsi and Arabic and not that many in English.

My reply:

The issue is that the direct sources are not that available as above.

- Art

I am not sure what to make of your response. At one place, you tell me that original books are not available in Persian and Arabic, yet on the other hand you bring one tradition from Isbatul Huda. Incidentally, I was just finalising a response to this argument about a "new" commission brought by the Qaem. I will have it up on the web site in the next 24 hours or so. If you do not want me to give any reference to my web site in this forum, I will be happy to paste the entire article here for your reference.

Secondly, you have still not answered the following points from where this discussion originated.

1. How is the tradition of Imam Ali a proof for the birth of Bab and Bahaullah.

2. Why is only one tradition from the footnote of Behar vol 38 taken as a proof for the Bab where as there are hundreds of traditions available about the Mahdi in the same book, albeit in volume 51, 52 and 53.

3. Beharul Anwar is not some hidden book. It has been available for long. Even before Bab and Bahaullah. So it is available for examination. In fact a few volumes (definitely volume 51) are available in English.

Regarding the books of the Bab, given that his credibility is so important to the Faith since he is the one who prophecised the coming of Bahaullah, then why is it taking so long to translate the book. Also given that SWB is available in English, obviously someone must have read the book and taken taken out the "selected writings" for translation. Where are those version which were referred to which selecting the "Selected Writings" of the Bab. Request whoever did SWB to release those versions please.

Finally regarding the cultural issue - will you call the Holy Prophet as cultural, namaz as cultural - I would assume that your answer to that question is no because these are not incidental, but integral to Islam. In the same manner, waiting for the Mahdi is not cultural or incidental, but is an integral part of Islam.

Anyway, I will request a return to the original discussion. How is the tradition of Imam Ali which is available in the footnote of Behar, volume 38 construed to be a prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. It will be nice if we can complete this discussion first.

Warm regards,
Imran

[arthra]

The original issue of this thread is not whether there is a tradition from the Imam Ali about the births of the Bab and Baha'u'llah..Check the OP.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

The original issue of this thread is not whether there is a tradition from the Imam Ali about the births of the Bab and Baha'u'llah..Check the OP.
- Art

You are correct. The original thread is not about the tradition of Imam Ali found on the footnote of Behar, volume 38, page 271 and liberally quoted by the Bahais as being the fulfilment of the prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. I will not ask this question again in this thread.

But since you pointed it out, I will rephrase your point - the question was not whether the tradition exists or not. The tradition exists. In fact my friend Scott even saved my time in locating it in Behar. The question was that how does it fit the prophecy of the births of the Bab and Bahaullah. This still remains unanswered.

Warm regards, as always
Imran

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

You are correct. The original thread is not about the tradition of Imam Ali found on the footnote of Behar, volume 38, page 271 and liberally quoted by the Bahais as being the fulfilment of the prophecy of the birth of Bab and Bahaullah. I will not ask this question again in this thread.

But since you pointed it out, I will rephrase your point - the question was not whether the tradition exists or not. The tradition exists. In fact my friend Scott even saved my time in locating it in Behar. The question was that how does it fit the prophecy of the births of the Bab and Bahaullah. This still remains unanswered.

Warm regards, as always
Imran

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.

Mick

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.
Mick

I have no intention of pirating any threads and despite your fervent appeal not to respond, I will take the liberty of doing so.

1. Raising questions, in my extremely humble opinion, does not constitute an attack on any Faith or for that matter on any person.

2. I asked the question much much earlier in response to a post by Scott and it was responded to in this thread itself. In fact read my earlier post. I have commended Scott for locating the tradition under discussion.

3. I too love all Mankind - I love you too. But my love will not color my judgement and sense of reasoning. I will still raise questions to those elements which I do not understand.

4. One of the key elements of the Bahai Faith is adherence to 12 principles - one of which says "independent investigation of the truth". I am only following this principle. Is asking questions an integral part of investigation? In my humble opinion, yes.

5. Finally, Mick I respect your views, but Iran has nothing to do with my question which is yet unanswered.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have no intention of pirating any threads and despite your fervent appeal not to respond, I will take the liberty of doing so.

1. Raising questions, in my extremely humble opinion, does not constitute an attack on any Faith or for that matter on any person.

2. I asked the question much much earlier in response to a post by Scott and it was responded to in this thread itself. In fact read my earlier post. I have commended Scott for locating the tradition under discussion.

3. I too love all Mankind - I love you too. But my love will not color my judgement and sense of reasoning. I will still raise questions to those elements which I do not understand.

4. One of the key elements of the Bahai Faith is adherence to 12 principles - one of which says "independent investigation of the truth". I am only following this principle. Is asking questions an integral part of investigation? In my humble opinion, yes.

5. Finally, Mick I respect your views, but Iran has nothing to do with my question which is yet unanswered.

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Many detractors of the Baha'i Faith, because of the energy they spent trying to disprove Baha'u'llah and His Writings eventually became enlightened and became followers themselves. I will welcome you when you see the Truth in this Great Cause. I will welcome your intelligence and kindness. I will hug you with love and a yearning to share in your new acceptance. In the mean time, I will pray for you and all your fellow attackers as I do daily in the hope they will cease causing the Baha'is of Iran the pain and suffering that is brought to them daily

Mick

[Popeyesays]

mran: "Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years."

The hadith says they are separated by two years. At the time of the death of Imam Ali this was true, why is it surprising that when the Imam Ali appears again he is two years younger than His master, thus resuming the relationship exactly?

That should be apparent to anyone.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Imran:
"Regarding the books of the Bab, given that his credibility is so important to the Faith since he is the one who prophecised the coming of Bahaullah, then why is it taking so long to translate the book. Also given that SWB is available in English, obviously someone must have read the book and taken taken out the "selected writings" for translation. Where are those version which were referred to which selecting the "Selected Writings" of the Bab. Request whoever did SWB to release those versions please."

Actually the Bible and the Qur'an anticipate the appearance of a Twin Manifestation. In the Bible, the Three Great Woes (woe unto those who do not heed the Word of Gd), and in the Quran: "Two blasts upon the trumpet and the second follows close upon the first."

Oh, yes; the translator--Adib Taherzadeh with the assistance of a team of translators at the World Center in the Archives section.

Mr. Taherzadeh also wrote: The Child of the Covenant, The Covenant of Baha`u'llah, The Revelation of Baha`u'llah Vols I, II, III and IV

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

By the by, I'm sorry I haven't been checking in so frequently. I had a contract to edit a couple of novels for a publisher and needed to get them done.

Regards,
Scott