Birth of the Baha'u'llah

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Mick

It seems to remain unanswered only to you. You have again tried to pirate a thread. No need to respond to me. I am not an academic. I am only a Baha'i that does not respond well to those that attack this Wonderful Cause and have little regard for one that supports those that attack my Friends in Iran. Unlike my fellow Baha'is I am still working on love of all Mankind, finding a couple individuals just too hard to accept as human.

Mick

Actually I agree that Imran supports the persecution, murder and destruction aimed at the Baha`i's in Iran. He probably considers it an act worthy in the sight of God. I think anyone reading the thread understands this, and his attempts to reason away the faith are seen in the light of someone who is fanatic in his denunciation.

Fortunately the western world understands the concepts of freedom of religious choice. Everytime he postulates as an innocent seeker of the truth, his true motive is obvious.

Baha`u'llah promises that the time will come when the venom and poison will be drained away from the Land of Ta (Persia) and it will become again a center of divine civilization. I think that will require the dismantlement of the political state of Iran which is hagridden by an unworthy clergy.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

mran: "Firstly, the tradition is from Imam Ali which clearly indicates the difference of two years in the age of the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali. Allamah Majlisi in the same footnote mentions that the age of the Holy Prophet was 66 and that of Imam Ali at the time of his martyrdom was 64. It is an acknowledged fact that the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali at their time of their DEATH were apart in age by 2 years."

The hadith says they are separated by two years. At the time of the death of Imam Ali this was true, why is it surprising that when the Imam Ali appears again he is two years younger than His master, thus resuming the relationship exactly?

That should be apparent to anyone.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott:

Firstly, it is a prophecy of Imam Ali (as) about his death that he would be martyred when his age would be less than the Holy Prophet (pbuh) by 2 years. Not that Ali preceeded the Holy Prophet by 2 years. So your analogy is flawed. In fact, just for the record, Ali was born 30 years after the Holy Prophet of Islam. Again I repeat, they were separated in DEATH and not at the time of their BIRTH by 2 years.

Secondly, you have added another dimension to the persona of the Bab by saying that "Imam Ali appeared again" - Bab was never considered as the return of Imam Ali.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Actually I agree that Imran supports the persecution, murder and destruction aimed at the Baha`i's in Iran. He probably considers it an act worthy in the sight of God. I think anyone reading the thread understands this, and his attempts to reason away the faith are seen in the light of someone who is fanatic in his denunciation.

Fortunately the western world understands the concepts of freedom of religious choice. Everytime he postulates as an innocent seeker of the truth, his true motive is obvious.

Baha`u'llah promises that the time will come when the venom and poison will be drained away from the Land of Ta (Persia) and it will become again a center of divine civilization. I think that will require the dismantlement of the political state of Iran which is hagridden by an unworthy clergy.

Regards,
Scott

Thank you Scott for your kind words.

I have scant respect for the "concepts of human justice" espoused by the Western world. It was the West that bombed Iraq, Afghnistan, Lebanon practiced slavery, discriminated against blacks, which looked the other way when Muslim shrines in Iraq were bombed. Perhaps people forget the events of the prison of Abu Gharib, forget that the West destroyed Iraq on the pretext of "posession of weapons of mass destruction" and then said that nothing was found.

The West supported Saddam against Iran even though Saddam was involved in the most gruesome human rights atrocities in Iraq. They simply "looked the other way" while Saddam did what he wanted to as long as he remained an ally of the west.

The Bahais cry over the destruction of their center in Tehran. Go to Saudi Arabia where the Shiites were persecuted and the shirines of their Imams destroyed. Again, the West "looked the other way" as long as Saudi remained an ally of the West and gave them oil at lower rates.

China probably has the worst human labour rights record in the present age. But its fine for the West as long it can keep buying Chinese goods at a cheap rate.

For every case, you tell me about Iran, I can tell you 10 in Palestine.

So when I say, I have scant respect for human rights - I dont say I do not respect human right. I only scoff at the Western world's selective interpretation and implementation of it.

I believe in the human rights which were practised by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Imam who followed him. They set standards which I believe the world should follow. Read the traditions of the Prophet and Imam Ali during their rule and see how not just men, but even women and children and also animals and trees enjoyed their protection. I believe in that school of thought. The West means nothing to me.

For long, I have mantained that the West practised double standards and will continue to do so till the time I see some change. I keep on seeing the US' statements on "human rights" violations in Iran and the fact the Bahais are being "watched" and "arrested." And I read that and say, "Sure, very good. But why are they not concerned about the millions in prisons in Abu Gharib and in Palestine."

I apologise for writing this long message. I did not intend to when I began writing it. But it is important to clarify, that I am not interested in entering a debate about human rights. The West has its own agenda which I believe is more politically motivated than driven by religion. My agenda is Belief and veracity of it in the light of the books of divinely inspired Prophets and Messengers. My arguments revolve around this only.

By coloring me as prejudiced or one who does not believe in human rights on a discussion forum does not affect me one bit nor does it help anybody.

Respectfully yours as always,
Imran

[arthra]

I think the discussion has digressed just a bit from it's original intentions.

For Baha'is I think it's our main interest that people be able to practise their religion in freedom... the denial of freedom of belief is really why the Founders of our Faith were imprisoned, exiled and in the case of His Holiness the Bab executed and why there are still people in jail and deprived of their rights...as they cannot even have a proper burial place without the site being desecrated so this is not just an east/west issue say between the European powers and the West on one side and Iran, Afganistan or Iraq on the other.

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

I think the discussion has digressed just a bit from it's original intentions. For Baha'is I think it's our main interest that people be able to practise their religion in freedom... the denial of freedom of belief is really why the Founders of our Faith were imprisoned, exiled and in the case of His Holiness the Bab executed and why there are still people in jail and deprived of their rights...as they cannot even have a proper burial place without the site being desecrated so this is not just an east/west issue say between the European powers and the West on one side and Iran, Afganistan or Iraq on the other.
- Art

I second your observation completely. As a Bahai and importantly as a human being, one will and should be concerned. There are no two views about that. Perhaps my own posts reflect that I am equally concerned about the state of Muslims.

The point was that in the middle of an academic discussion, when this issue is brought up, it serves no purpose except from being a digression from what could be a very interesting discussion.

Regards
Imran

[arthra]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I second your observation completely. As a Bahai and importantly as a human being, one will and should be concerned. There are no two views about that. Perhaps my own posts reflect that I am equally concerned about the state of Muslims.

The point was that in the middle of an academic discussion, when this issue is brought up, it serves no purpose except from being a digression from what could be a very interesting discussion.

Regards
Imran

We are not apologists here for the West so maybe your post regarding the issue of Iraq/Iran/Afganistan, etc. would be best shared on the political forum. Since this is a Baha'i Forum, Baha'i issues are more the focus.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

As to why it takes so long to translate Baha'i scriptures from Persian and Arabic, the answer is twofold:

1. Great care is being taken to assure all these translations are as perfect as possible so that they convey their original meanings with complete accuracy!
2. And translations aren't merely being done into English: already, Baha'i scriptures are translated into over 800 different languages! (We mustn't be overly provincial and concentrate just on English, I suggest.)

That said, translation is indeed proceeding, and we've received several new volumes of English versions of previously untranslated Baha'i scriptures in the past several years!

So all this is indeed proceeding!

Also, it's quite possible that not all 200 volumes are immediately relevant today, so it's only reasonable that a decision might be made to translate the most important and relevant works first.

Peace,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings!

As to why it takes so long to translate Baha'i scriptures from Persian and Arabic, the answer is twofold:

1. Great care is being taken to assure all these translations are as perfect as possible so that they convey their original meanings with complete accuracy!
2. And translations aren't merely being done into English: already, Baha'i scriptures are translated into over 800 different languages! (We mustn't be overly provincial and concentrate just on English, I suggest.)

That said, translation is indeed proceeding, and we've received several new volumes of English versions of previously untranslated Baha'i scriptures in the past several years!
So all this is indeed proceeding!
Also, it's quite possible that not all 200 volumes are immediately relevant today, so it's only reasonable that a decision might be made to translate the most important and relevant works first.
Peace,
Bruce

Thanks Bruce:

I am particularly interested in the books of the Bab. Would you have any idea about these. Most of the books of the Bab are available in their source languages - Arabic and Persian - and have been available for as long as I can remember. Thankfully, I am fairly proficient in both languages. So the translations are not really an issue.

The issue is that which books of the Bab are considered to be authentic and which are forgeries? And also how much of each book is authentic and how much is a forgery? For example, SWB contains quotations from the Bab from his books, for example Dalaelus Sabah. The quotes from SWB match the version which I have for Dalaelus Sabah. But when we look at another page of the same book and the same version which contains a quote from the Bab which is contrary to the Bahai Faith, then I am told that the books were susceptible to forgery. For example, the Bab in Dalaelus Sabah refers to another person as the Mahdi. And does the same in Sahifae Adaliyah and in Qayyamul Asma. And yes, in Tafseere Surah Kauthar as well.

I hope I have been able to make my point. If SWB has been around for long and if the person making the translation had access to the book why are only parts of it considered authentic and freely quoted and the others labelled. Should'nt the original or official versions if I may be available for the benefit of all?

Regards
Imran

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Thanks Bruce:

I am particularly interested in the books of the Bab. Would you have any idea about these. Most of the books of the Bab are available in their source languages - Arabic and Persian - and have been available for as long as I can remember. Thankfully, I am fairly proficient in both languages. So the translations are not really an issue.

The issue is that which books of the Bab are considered to be authentic and which are forgeries? And also how much of each book is authentic and how much is a forgery? For example, SWB contains quotations from the Bab from his books, for example Dalaelus Sabah. The quotes from SWB match the version which I have for Dalaelus Sabah. But when we look at another page of the same book and the same version which contains a quote from the Bab which is contrary to the Bahai Faith, then I am told that the books were susceptible to forgery. For example, the Bab in Dalaelus Sabah refers to another person as the Mahdi. And does the same in Sahifae Adaliyah and in Qayyamul Asma. And yes, in Tafseere Surah Kauthar as well.

I hope I have been able to make my point. If SWB has been around for long and if the person making the translation had access to the book why are only parts of it considered authentic and freely quoted and the others labelled. Should'nt the original or official versions if I may be available for the benefit of all?

Regards
Imran

I am curious why you keep concentrating on The Bab. We are Baha'is. We recognize The Bab and His Mysteries as we do the other Manifestations. If you are simply trying to disprove the validity of the Baha'i Faith, why not start with one of the early ones, like Abraham. Disprove the claims of Baha'u'llah concerning the mention of the "Glory of God" in the Torah. You remind me of a cracked record that keeps repeating itself. It would be refreshing to hear a new story from you.

You have been told many of the writings are not translated or published. Go find them. These people here owe you nothing, including answering all your "WHY" questions. We are not authoritive for the Baha'i Faith; simply seekers and believers of the Faith willing to try to answer questions from those curious about the principles of the Faith or information concerning Baha'u'llah. You keep pecking at individuals like it is an inquisition. Like you are going to prove something by trying to catch somebody in an error.

The only value I can see you being here is you raise subjects that we get to answer for all the lookers and readers. We also get to mention the atrocities you and your friends and cohorts are known to have laid on the heads of Baha'is in Iran and we get to point out that it hasn't stopped and is continuing today. By your presence, we get to share with others the invalidity of your website. Your kind is not new. We have had individuals bother to write books dismissing the Baha'i Faith. They simply disappear into the bin of unwanted books while the books of the Central Figures continue to sit on the shelves of the libraries here in America.

Maybe some of the members here enjoy your camoflaged academic questions. They will continue to try to "aid" you in your quest. I would suggest you simply say,

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

Baha'u'llah

with continuing interest

Mick

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings.

As I trust is obvious, I am in no position to say what is or is not authentic Baha'i or Babi scripture--nor is anyone else here to the best of my knowledge!

So there's really no point in asking the question here.

Peace,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Thank you Scott for your kind words.

I have scant respect for the "concepts of human justice" espoused by the Western world. It was the West that bombed Iraq, Afghnistan, Lebanon practiced slavery, discriminated against blacks, which looked the other way when Muslim shrines in Iraq were bombed. Perhaps people forget the events of the prison of Abu Gharib, forget that the West destroyed Iraq on the pretext of "posession of weapons of mass destruction" and then said that nothing was found.

The West supported Saddam against Iran even though Saddam was involved in the most gruesome human rights atrocities in Iraq. They simply "looked the other way" while Saddam did what he wanted to as long as he remained an ally of the west.

The Bahais cry over the destruction of their center in Tehran. Go to Saudi Arabia where the Shiites were persecuted and the shirines of their Imams destroyed. Again, the West "looked the other way" as long as Saudi remained an ally of the West and gave them oil at lower rates.

China probably has the worst human labour rights record in the present age. But its fine for the West as long it can keep buying Chinese goods at a cheap rate.

For every case, you tell me about Iran, I can tell you 10 in Palestine.

So when I say, I have scant respect for human rights - I dont say I do not respect human right. I only scoff at the Western world's selective interpretation and implementation of it.

I believe in the human rights which were practised by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the Imam who followed him. They set standards which I believe the world should follow. Read the traditions of the Prophet and Imam Ali during their rule and see how not just men, but even women and children and also animals and trees enjoyed their protection. I believe in that school of thought. The West means nothing to me.

For long, I have mantained that the West practised double standards and will continue to do so till the time I see some change. I keep on seeing the US' statements on "human rights" violations in Iran and the fact the Bahais are being "watched" and "arrested." And I read that and say, "Sure, very good. But why are they not concerned about the millions in prisons in Abu Gharib and in Palestine."

I apologise for writing this long message. I did not intend to when I began writing it. But it is important to clarify, that I am not interested in entering a debate about human rights. The West has its own agenda which I believe is more politically motivated than driven by religion. My agenda is Belief and veracity of it in the light of the books of divinely inspired Prophets and Messengers. My arguments revolve around this only.

By coloring me as prejudiced or one who does not believe in human rights on a discussion forum does not affect me one bit nor does it help anybody.

Respectfully yours as always,
Imran

That was a very graceful tap-dance. Now do you or do you not think that the persecution of Baha`is for their religious beliefs is wrong? Simply take it on it's own without connectgion to any other issue. Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it justice? Is it injustice?

I will happily grant that Europe has exploited and discriminated against their muslim guest workers and citizens and condemned them to long-term second class citizenship. I will happily grant that the second Gulf War was a mistake.
(By the way--simply as a positive note in the eyes of Baha`i's--the government of the Baathists had outlawed the Baha`i Faith years ago, in fact the short-lived United Arab Republic of Egypt and Iraq had stipulated that Egypt must also ban the Faith--the war restulted in the removal of that 'banned status' and for the first time in decades the Iraqi National Spiritual Assembly and all the Local Spiritual Assemblies are now legal and one can be a Baha`i in Iraq again and have what rights of citizenship are available to the members of other faiths.)

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Scott:

Firstly, it is a prophecy of Imam Ali (as) about his death that he would be martyred when his age would be less than the Holy Prophet (pbuh) by 2 years. Not that Ali preceeded the Holy Prophet by 2 years. So your analogy is flawed. In fact, just for the record, Ali was born 30 years after the Holy Prophet of Islam. Again I repeat, they were separated in DEATH and not at the time of their BIRTH by 2 years.

Secondly, you have added another dimension to the persona of the Bab by saying that "Imam Ali appeared again" - Bab was never considered as the return of Imam Ali.

Regards
Imran

The final relationship of Ali and Muhammad in age was the difference between their ages at death. That their ages were separated by the same gap when the "New Commission" of the Qa'im came into being is reasonable fulfilment of the prophecy.

Have you worn out those tap shoes yet?

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Did anything significant happen during his birth? Any astronomical coincidences? Any wise men come to visit? Was anyone other then the Bab and his followers expecting him? Any proof of this? This is a sincere question.

Postmaster,

To get back to your original question. Scott mentioned "Thief in the Night" by William Sears as a reference. This is a book written by the Hand of the Cause William Sears that gives just about any proof you may ever want for the validity of Baha'u'llah. It includes proofs from the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Koran, Zorastrian tradition, Buddhist and Hindu tradition as well. He concentrated, though, on Biblical prophecy as he had been a Christian and lived in a Christian country.

If you go to

Amazon.com: Thief in the Night (Talisman Books; No. 5): Books: William Sears

you can purchase it for, I think, $5.50 plus shipping and handling. I can purchase it for you and have it sent to you and would gladly do that. I would need a mailing address, though, which you could share with me by email.

It is a good read if you want to understand Prophecy Fulfilled.

Mick Zellar

[Popeyesays]

Has anyone noticed that Imran seems to think that Baha`i's are American? Not just American but the American government?

No Baha`i in the U.S. is a member of a political party, and therefore there is no single Baha`i congressman, senator, governor, president, state senator or state representative. We have no official voice in the bureaucracy of the government of the United States--other than as voters.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Has anyone noticed that Imran seems to think that Baha`i's are American? Not just American but the American government?

No Baha`i in the U.S. is a member of a political party, and therefore there is no single Baha`i congressman, senator, governor, president, state senator or state representative. We have no official voice in the bureaucracy of the government of the United States--other than as voters.

Regards,
Scott

Scott,

Good point. Let me also add that there are Baha'is in every country in the world. So when he speaks of Baha'is, he is truly speaking of World Citizens and none of these Baha'is anywhere in the world are members of a political party. As Baha'is, they are supportive of the peoples of their country and live within the laws of the government of that country. The reason the Irani's and the Egyptians can bully Baha'is is that they will not fight back. Well, not with arms. They will fight back with prayers, though, and people of other countries will speak for them.

I have many Islamic friends. I personally have never met any that "hate" the Baha'is, but I am aware there are some. Well, these same people seem to hate a lot of people. I have messaged with Irani's that weren't Baha'is, but knew of the Baha'i Faith and didn't hate the Baha'is they knew. As our Imran showed us, he hates Westerners. Curious since it seems he is trying to teach Westerners (his site is in English) about his brand of religion, which obviously includes "hate for Westerners". Doesn't hate, prejudice, and enmity get confusing?

I wish our friend well. Not success in his hate mongering, but well in his search for the truth of God. He does seem a little smug in the little he knows about God and His Desires, but, at times, he shows a flash of enlightenment. Maybe if he hangs with us a little longer, he will learn tolerance of others that aren't like him. We can only pray for his guidance.

Mick