Birth of the Baha'u'llah

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Mick

Postmaster,

To get back to your original question. Scott mentioned "Thief in the Night" by William Sears as a reference. This is a book written by the Hand of the Cause William Sears that gives just about any proof you may ever want for the validity of Baha'u'llah. It includes proofs from the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Koran, Zorastrian tradition, Buddhist and Hindu tradition as well. He concentrated, though, on Biblical prophecy as he had been a Christian and lived in a Christian country.

If you go to

Amazon.com: Thief in the Night (Talisman Books; No. 5): Books: William Sears

you can purchase it for, I think, $5.50 plus shipping and handling. I can purchase it for you and have it sent to you and would gladly do that. I would need a mailing address, though, which you could share with me by email.

It is a good read if you want to understand Prophecy Fulfilled.

Mick Zellar

One can also get Thief in the Night for free as part of the Ocean Research Library. For a more up to date look at prophecy in the Baha`i Faith, Michael Sours and Gary Matthews have written some interesting books on the subject.
Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The final relationship of Ali and Muhammad in age was the difference between their ages at death. That their ages were separated by the same gap when the "New Commission" of the Qa'im came into being is reasonable fulfilment of the prophecy.

Have you worn out those tap shoes yet?

Regards,
Scott

I dont know how to dance, leave alone wear tap shoes!

How is it a prophecy for the birth of if Imam Ali says that I am two years younger than my Lord? How is it a prophecy? And any response to all the other traditions in the same book about the Mahdi? Why are they not being considered?

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I dont know how to dance, leave alone wear tap shoes!

How is it a prophecy for the birth of if Imam Ali says that I am two years younger than my Lord? How is it a prophecy? And any response to all the other traditions in the same book about the Mahdi? Why are they not being considered?

Regards
Imran

Imran, why not raise three or four of these other traditions, perhaps in a separate thread?

Really it would dispell a lot of smoke if you would just say whether or not you support the Iranian government's policies toward the Baha`i Faith. If you support those policies at least it would be out in the open and you would avoid accusations of evasion. It would do a lot to establish your good will in these discussions either way.

I might even apologize for some of my statements, I certainly would not accuse you of tap-dancing (avoiding a statement of stance on an issue), if you would come clean.

Why do you say on Shiahchat that Baha`i's are kafir when you keep telling us here that you are some sort of sincere seeker of the truth? That's more posturing and tap-dancing. It makes you look two-faced, deceitful and manipulative.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

I am curious why you keep concentrating on The Bab. We are Baha'is. We recognize The Bab and His Mysteries as we do the other Manifestations. If you are simply trying to disprove the validity of the Baha'i Faith, why not start with one of the early ones, like Abraham. Disprove the claims of Baha'u'llah concerning the mention of the "Glory of God" in the Torah. You remind me of a cracked record that keeps repeating itself. It would be refreshing to hear a new story from you.

The Bab is critical to the Bahai Faith. His teachings are what led to the birth of a "Bahaullah" just as the Shaykhi teachings led to the birth of a "Bab."

Secondly, if the Bahais consider him as a Mahdi and espouse that theory, it must be understood why. It has implications for all our Faiths. There are prophecies about the Mahdi in Islam right from the Holy Prophet and the Imams that succeeded him. If they took the trouble to inform us about the Mahdi, it would be a shame not to refer to them to see whether the Bab - The Mahdi for the Bahais fits those prophecies or not. We believe our Prophet and the Imams told us the truth. There is a rich source of traditions about the Mahdi. We must move ahead from "symbolic meanings" and traditions found in footnotes. When the Imams said that the name of the Mahdi is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan - the son of Imam Hasan Askari (as), there is nothing symbolic about that. When the prophet informed us that the Mahdi will be carrying the same standard as that of the Prophet in Badr, then there is nothing symbolic about that. We do not dismiss the Bab outright. We only want to check whether he meets the measures set out for the Muslims by the Prophet and the Imams.

As regards the cracked record, I am happy to be a cracked record. It is not in my nature to move ahead on subjects which are unanswered. As regards the words of the Torah etc, etc, we believe that the Prophet fulfilled those prophecies. The Jews of Medina, the Christians who accepted the Holy Prophet of Islam did so on the basis of those prophecies.

Read the history of Islam. Medina was not the birthplace of the Jews. They came to Medina from Egypt and Palestine to Medina because of the prophecies in their books. I am fearful to write more because it will digress from the original topic of the Bab and his veracity.

You have been told many of the writings are not translated or published. Go find them. These people here owe you nothing, including answering all your "WHY" questions. We are not authoritive for the Baha'i Faith; simply seekers and believers of the Faith willing to try to answer questions from those curious about the principles of the Faith or information concerning Baha'u'llah. You keep pecking at individuals like it is an inquisition. Like you are going to prove something by trying to catch somebody in an error.

I apologise if that is the perception I have created that I am trying to catch someone on the wrong end.

I have also mentioned that I do not need the writings of the Bab - I have them already. I am only concerned about the "selective" texts chosen to represent the words of the Bab and the balance treated as forgeries from the same book.

You have mentioned that yourself and Bahais attempt to answer questions about the Faith. What else am I doing on the forum. Simply seeking answers to my questions. I am not apologetic that you have not read the books of the Bab or have read only selected books. If you do not have the answer, its fine. I will seek them from some person else. I do not claim to be an authority as well on any subject.

The only value I can see you being here is you raise subjects that we get to answer for all the lookers and readers. We also get to mention the atrocities you and your friends and cohorts are known to have laid on the heads of Baha'is in Iran and we get to point out that it hasn't stopped and is continuing today. By your presence, we get to share with others the invalidity of your website. Your kind is not new. We have had individuals bother to write books dismissing the Baha'i Faith. They simply disappear into the bin of unwanted books while the books of the Central Figures continue to sit on the shelves of the libraries here in America.

I am happy that you find my presence here of some value. I have no issues with you labelling me as prejudiced or my site as such. I believe Allah granted every person the power of reasoning and the ability to differentiate. Let people make their own decisions. As for the books in American libraries, good for you. I am happy if you are happy too. But their presence in Western libraries is not a proof for me for the Faith.

Maybe some of the members here enjoy your camoflaged academic questions. They will continue to try to "aid" you in your quest. I would suggest you simply say,

"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

Baha'u'llah

O Allah, In the event of dispute in the matter of truth, show us the right path by Your permission. Surely You guide whoever You wish to the right path.

- From the Psalms of Islam by Imam Ali ibnil Hussain (the fourth Shiite Imam)

with continuing interest

Mick

Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Imran, why not raise three or four of these other traditions, perhaps in a separate thread?

Really it would dispell a lot of smoke if you would just say whether or not you support the Iranian government's policies toward the Baha`i Faith. If you support those policies at least it would be out in the open and you would avoid accusations of evasion. It would do a lot to establish your good will in these discussions either way.

I might even apologize for some of my statements, I certainly would not accuse you of tap-dancing (avoiding a statement of stance on an issue), if you would come clean.

Why do you say on Shiahchat that Baha`i's are kafir when you keep telling us here that you are some sort of sincere seeker of the truth? That's more posturing and tap-dancing. It makes you look two-faced, deceitful and manipulative.

Regards,
Scott

Of course, I am a sincere seeker of the truth. My web site reflects that. Go through the list of books on my web site (I would be happy to put the link here except that it will be removed saying that the web site is prejudiced) and let me know how many books from that list you have read. Such is my sincerety that I read all those books just to establish the veracity of the Bahai Faith.

I fear Allah and the Day of Judgement. I do not dispell any claimant of Mahdi till the time the claim is verified. I am still in the process of doing that and part of that process requires me to ask questions and seek answers from those who are Bahais themselves to understand whether or not they came across the same questions in their quest for the Truth.

Dont apologise for your statements. I am unaffected by it and I expect the same from you as well.

The position of any person who believes that there will be another prophet after the Holy Prophet of Islam and one who believes in another revelation after the Quran is that of a Kafir. It is the law in Islam set out by the Holy Prophet and the Imams - it is not my personal judgement. So I hope I have clarified that. Till the time the any person persists in this belief, he is called and treated as a Kafir. I am happy to put it down in this forum as well so that you can see that I am not "two-faced", "deceitful" and "manipulative".

As regards Iran, I have already clarified my position in an earlier thread. I believe that all humans must get their rights. And all humans must fulfill their duties as well. So I hope that clarifies that as well. In any case, I really cannot fathom why my view is so critical to the issue.

As regards the traditions, is there any particular Shiite book which you rely upon. I can see whether I can bring any traditions from there. In any case, there are many traditions which I have brought on my web site.

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Has anyone noticed that Imran seems to think that Baha`i's are American? Not just American but the American government?

No Baha`i in the U.S. is a member of a political party, and therefore there is no single Baha`i congressman, senator, governor, president, state senator or state representative. We have no official voice in the bureaucracy of the government of the United States--other than as voters.

Regards,
Scott

Apologise for creating that perception. I dont know where you got that from - perhaps becase of my post about the West. That post simply came out of your own post wherein you highlighted that Western world regard for human rights.

Just for the record, all Bahais are equal in my eyes.

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Of course, I am a sincere seeker of the truth. My web site reflects that. Go through the list of books on my web site (I would be happy to put the link here except that it will be removed saying that the web site is prejudiced) and let me know how many books from that list you have read. Such is my sincerety that I read all those books just to establish the veracity of the Bahai Faith.

Comparing these statements raised a huge flag of contradiction. If Baha`i's are kafir, then they cannot possess a true revelation by your own statement; therefore you are either confused or dissembling when you try to contend both things are true at once.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The position of any person who believes that there will be another prophet after the Holy Prophet of Islam and one who believes in another revelation after the Quran is that of a Kafir. It is the law in Islam set out by the Holy Prophet and the Imams - it is not my personal judgement. So I hope I have clarified that. Till the time the any person persists in this belief, he is called and treated as a Kafir. I am happy to put it down in this forum as well so that you can see that I am not "two-faced", "deceitful" and "manipulative".

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

As regards Iran, I have already clarified my position in an earlier thread. I believe that all humans must get their rights. And all humans must fulfill their duties as well. So I hope that clarifies that as well. In any case, I really cannot fathom why my view is so critical to the issue.

Actually you clarified nothing then and you clarify nothing now. This is a perfect example of logical tap-dancing. What rights? What duties? In your own estimation?

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

As regards the traditions, is there any particular Shiite book which you rely upon. I can see whether I can bring any traditions from there. In any case, there are many traditions which I have brought on my web site.

Regards
Imran

Why not simply stick with the book at hand?

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Why not simply stick with the book at hand?

Which book? Beharul Anwar?

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

As regards Iran, [the human rights situation for Baha`i's in Iran, one of continuous persecution, imprisonment, denial of even the right to be buried as a Baha`i--clarification by Popeyesays]I have already clarified my position in an earlier thread. I believe that all humans must get their rights. And all humans must fulfill their duties as well. So I hope that clarifies that as well. In any case, I really cannot fathom why my view is so critical to the issue.

As regards the traditions, is there any particular Shiite book which you rely upon. I can see whether I can bring any traditions from there. In any case, there are many traditions which I have brought on my web site.

Regards
Imran

You never clarified anything, Imran instead you choose to slink around the question with no meaningful response.

you correctly identified the book, though let's stick to traditions that can be identified to prophecies of the Qa'im, okay? We can also discuss the writings of Siyyid Kazim and Shaykh Ahmad as well.

It would of course help matters if you would take a stand--any stand at all--on the actions of the Iranian government against Baha`i's in Iran. Dissimulation, evasion, avoidance and speaking out of both sides of your mouth do not become you or the cause of Islam.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The Bab is critical to the Bahai Faith. His teachings are what led to the birth of a "Bahaullah" just as the Shaykhi teachings led to the birth of a "Bab."

Not to me and not to the Baha'i Faith...at least it is not necessary to fit every dogmatic thought by every right wing fervant zealot to the Baha'i Faith. I spend more time talking with Christians than Moslems, simply because I live in an area dominated by Christians and many of these are of the same ilk as you, right wing fevant zealot.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Secondly, if the Bahais consider him as a Mahdi and espouse that theory, it must be understood why. It has implications for all our Faiths. There are prophecies about the Mahdi in Islam right from the Holy Prophet and the Imams that succeeded him. If they took the trouble to inform us about the Mahdi, it would be a shame not to refer to them to see whether the Bab - The Mahdi for the Bahais fits those prophecies or not. We believe our Prophet and the Imams told us the truth. There is a rich source of traditions about the Mahdi. We must move ahead from "symbolic meanings" and traditions found in footnotes. When the Imams said that the name of the Mahdi is Mohammed Ibnil Hasan - the son of Imam Hasan Askari (as), there is nothing symbolic about that. When the prophet informed us that the Mahdi will be carrying the same standard as that of the Prophet in Badr, then there is nothing symbolic about that. We do not dismiss the Bab outright. We only want to check whether he meets the measures set out for the Muslims by the Prophet and the Imams.

Who is we? Are you speaking for all of Islam? Are you the spokesperson for an Iranian Anti-Baha'i think group? Please identify who you represent. I'm not going to buy an answer that suggest you simply mis-spoke yourself. You are a very calculating and well spoken individual that, has yet, admitted he has erred in anything he posted.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I apologise if that is the perception I have created that I am trying to catch someone on the wrong end.

How utterly trite. Are you apologizing for being found out? Again, you are a calculating individual, so I doubt if you would give any impression you hadn't meant to.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have also mentioned that I do not need the writings of the Bab - I have them already. I am only concerned about the "selective" texts chosen to represent the words of the Bab and the balance treated as forgeries from the same book.

We are not authoritive...ask somebody else.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

You have mentioned that yourself and Bahais attempt to answer questions about the Faith. What else am I doing on the forum. Simply seeking answers to my questions. I am not apologetic that you have not read the books of the Bab or have read only selected books. If you do not have the answer, its fine. I will seek them from some person else. I do not claim to be an authority as well on any subject.

You are trying to proselytize...pure and simple. Your persistence proves this. You have the books, you have an opinion and here, again, you "humbly" insist you are a lowly seeker. Bah!

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

O Allah, In the event of dispute in the matter of truth, show us the right path by Your permission. Surely You guide whoever You wish to the right path.

- From the Psalms of Islam by Imam Ali ibnil Hussain (the fourth Shiite Imam)



Respectfully yours, as always
Imran

Thank you for the quote. I too ask for guidance. We are also told that if we nurture our soul with recognition of God, prayer and good acts, our soul will strengthen and give us guidance. Now pay attention, Imran, because this is important. Not just in the big things, but also in all the little things that make up our day, that helps define who we are. Maybe the way we react to an individual, or to a situation, maybe what we say, or how we posture. I am not talking about learned politeness. I am describing sincere reaction driven by the soulful presence of the Attributes of God.

We have a responsibility in this symbiotic relationship, though. We have to learn to listen to our soul. It could be screaming for our attention and if we are too tied up in our own self-righteousness or set of learned beliefs, we may not here its pleas.

Allah'u'Abha,

Mick

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I am fearful to write more because it will digress from the original topic of the Bab and his veracity.

I missed this sentence when I responded earlier. I thought it was in another post. The original topic concerns the Birth of Baha'u'llah, not the validity of The Bab. You are so way off topic, I can't imagine you really being concerned about anything other than your own ego.

Mick

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

I missed this sentence when I responded earlier. I thought it was in another post. The original topic concerns the Birth of Baha'u'llah, not the validity of The Bab. You are so way off topic, I can't imagine you really being concerned about anything other than your own ego.
Mick

Dear Mick:

I apologise - you are correct, the original post was about the birth of Bahaullah. As part of the earlier posts, the question about the tradition of Imam Ali came up which concerns the Bab as well. Hence I guess, the topic veered towards the Bab. If it is ok, and since not much is being said about the birth of Bahaullah, may we continue our focus on the tradition and the Bab?

Secondly, why is any kind of questioning perceived to be an attack on the Faith? I am putting forward a question which is backed by some reference and not shooting off my mouth and seeking a response. You can ignore the question if you like. No person, including myself is forced to reply.

Just because you question my motive, it does not mean that I will go away. You are justified in doing so and I appreciate that. In the same manner, if I ask you a question, it does not mean I dont like you. I just need an answer.

Also, I have always tried to be objective and polite in my posts. If I have offended any person, I would like to clarify that it is totally non intentional and seek his/her forgiveness for that.

Warm regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

you correctly identified the book, though let's stick to traditions that can be identified to prophecies of the Qa'im, okay? We can also discuss the writings of Siyyid Kazim and Shaykh Ahmad as well.
Regards,
Scott

Volumes 51, 52 and 53 of Behar talk about the Qaem, his government, his long life, his occultation, his birth, his long life, his name, his parents, his representatives, conditions preceding him, conditions following him etc etc.

Where do you want to start? I recommend that we start with the traditions about the geneology of the Mahdi.

Also, lets stick to Behar first. Sayyid Kazim and Shaykh Ahmed were not Imams - Behar contains traditions from the Prophet and the Imams. Lets hear what the divine representatives have to say first.

Secondly, as regards the Iran government, I have no concern with them.
They do not justify my actions and I do not justify theirs.

When I sleep in my grave after death and am questioned about my life in this world, the Iranian government is not going to come to help me. Only my belief will. I will be questioned about which Imam I followed - the Mahdi of Islam or the Mahdi of the Bahais.

The Quran says, "yauma nadoo kulla onasim be imamehim" - on that day We will call the people with their Imams. (Bani Israel, verse 71)

So I want to make sure I am with the right Imam and not with the wrong one. That in effect explains my motivation for being here on this forum.

Regards,
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

One can also get Thief in the Night for free as part of the Ocean Research Library. For a more up to date look at prophecy in the Baha`i Faith, Michael Sours and Gary Matthews have written some interesting books on the subject.
Regards,
Scott

I have downloaded the Ocean Research project, but could not find Thief in the Night in that. Do you have a soft copy. If yes, could you please forward it to me. You know my address: imranshaykh@gmail.com?

Regards,

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have downloaded the Ocean Research project, but could not find Thief in the Night in that. Do you have a soft copy. If yes, could you please forward it to me. You know my address: imranshaykh@gmail.com?

Regards,

I have just checked the Ocean on my computer and put Thief in the Night in the search part, it will come up.

Also you can just click on Baha'i in the index, then on "Baha'i Studies" then on "William Sears" and two books are listed. Don't pass up Release The Sun. It is a marvelous book by the Hand of the Cause William Sears.

If you follow these links and you still don't come up with it, you may have an older version of Ocean and may want to update it.

Mick