BK Religions - Page 3

cyberpi · 11-02-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

True Christianity is not Burger King, You dont get it your way.

I think the definition of FAITH is that you do get it your way, Burger King style. I challenge you Dor, and FaithfulServant, to find a single quote from Jesus (pbuh) with the word FAITH where a person did NOT get it their way. I will then challenge myself to show you how in every use of the word FAITH, by Jesus (pbuh) in the 4 bible gospels, there was an example of a person... a mere man... getting it his way.

Quahom1 · 11-02-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I think the definition of FAITH is that you do get it your way, Burger King style. I challenge you Dor, and FaithfulServant, to find a single quote from Jesus (pbuh) with the word FAITH where a person did NOT get it their way. I will then challenge myself to show you how in every use of the word FAITH, by Jesus (pbuh) in the 4 bible gospels, there was an example of a person... a mere man... getting it his way.

No, you first Cyberpi. You present your "evidence". No Christian has to justify their faith, to anyone. Your "challenge" is an insult (once again), to the faith those have in Christ Jesus. This is getting old Cyberpi...and you know what?...I'm gonna bring in I, Brian into this issue. This is going way beyond questions and dialogue.

I opine your sole purpose is to disrupt the Christian forum...

It is the equivelant of me saying that your God "Allah" and your prophet "Mohammed", are both dead...(doesn't feel very good now does it?).

v/r

Joshua

Here, you can complain to I,Brian: mailto:brian@comparative-religion.com

cyberpi · 11-02-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No, you first Cyberpi. You present your "evidence". No Christian has to justify their faith, to anyone. Your "challenge" is an insult (once again), to the faith those have in Christ Jesus. This is getting old Cyberpi...and you know what?...I'm gonna bring in I, Brian into this issue. This is going way beyond questions and dialogue.

I opine your sole purpose is to disrupt the Christian forum...

It is the equivelant of me saying that your God "Allah" and your prophet "Mohammed", are both dead...(doesn't feel very good now does it?).

v/r

Joshua

Here, you can complain to I,Brian: mailto:brian@comparative-religion.com

You have both asked me for my evidence and essentially told me that I am NOT a Christian in your eyes so get lost. Well, which do you want?

Why are you afraid of a challenge? I place the same challenge with you or anyone who thinks they are the owner of this rose garden... if you claim to be a Christian describing the words of Christ here, then I ask you to show me from the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) where he taught that Faith means NOT getting it your way. I am for the definition of Faith that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself teaches, and I submit that this thread teaches the exact opposite.

Actually, I should say this thread diverged... I found the middle part interesting but unassociated with the original post. I was drawn to focus on the title and concept of a 'Burger King' religion.

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

You have both asked me for my evidence and essentially told me that I am NOT a Christian in your eyes so get lost. Well, which do you want?

Why are you afraid of a challenge? I place the same challenge with you or anyone who thinks they are the owner of this rose garden... if you claim to be a Christian describing the words of Christ here, then I ask you to show me from the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) where he taught that Faith means NOT getting it your way. I am for the definition of Faith that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself teaches, and I submit that this thread teaches the exact opposite.

Actually, I should say this thread diverged... I found the middle part interesting but unassociated with the original post. I was drawn to focus on the title and concept of a 'Burger King' religion.

Present your evidence...

cyberpi · 11-03-2006, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Present your evidence...

Very well I shall lead the dance with one step and not the full marathon, yet I will also run the marathon with you if you, Dor, or FaithfulServant has the patience. I present the first step with one that I think you may appreciate:

Matthew 8:8-10 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great FAITH, no, not in Israel.

So it was not a Jew, it was not in Israel, and it was in the words of a man in the military of the Roman Empire where Jesus (pbuh) saw, at that point, the greatest Faith. What did Faith mean? Did the Centurion get it BK style?

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Yes, the Centurion, or rather his servant, got it BK style, exactly as the Centurion asked and believed. Was the Centurion from Rome (a non-Jew and NOT from Israel) a Christian? Was it in the sacrament that the Centurion was worthy? Were his servants Christian perhaps? Were they all baptized Christians? Was this the least examples of Faith or the greatest example that Jesus (pbuh) had found at that point? Did the Centurion at least read the bible?

kiwimac · 11-03-2006, 06:37 AM

The thing about grace is, its free. Otherwise it is simply payment for services rendered.

kiwimac

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwimac

The thing about grace is, its free. Otherwise it is simply payment for services rendered.

kiwimac

Without agreeing or disagreeing, I would like to ask whether you think grace comes before faith, or vice-versa.

Thomas · 11-03-2006, 11:57 AM

Just to but in, in the Catholic Tradition, faith is itself a grace.

Thomas

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Just to but in, in the Catholic Tradition, faith is itself a grace.

Thomas

Would that then mean that faith is a gift from God?

wil · 11-03-2006, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Would that then mean that faith is a gift from God?

Sure, and Jesus selected Peter based on his expression of faith, John -love, Andrew-strength, James-wisdom...

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Sure

But if we are saved by faith, and if faith is a gift from God then salvation, actual salvation and not just the possibility thereof, is a gift from God.

Saltmeister · 11-03-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Yes, the Centurion, or rather his servant, got it BK style, exactly as the Centurion asked and believed. Was the Centurion from Rome (a non-Jew and NOT from Israel) a Christian? Was it in the sacrament that the Centurion was worthy? Were his servants Christian perhaps? Were they all baptized Christians? Was this the least examples of Faith or the greatest example that Jesus (pbuh) had found at that point? Did the Centurion at least read the bible?

Hey careful here.

You should also realise that the term "Christian" is subjective.

Whether a person is "Christian" is not defined by a set of rules.

Nor is faith defined by a set of rules.

The terms "Christian" and "faith" are both personal. They are defined by what they mean to you.

Language is a structural and systematic framework for conveying meaning, but human thinking is not restricted by such a framework. Sometimes what we feel and experience cannot be quantified precisely in words. The framework doesn't always fit perfectly.

I don't think we should put so much emphasis on getting the precise meaning of words. If I tried to define "Christian" or "faith," my definition may not make sense to you. Your's may not make sense to me. God made us all different and likewise we see different things as important. Our minds filter out different aspects of the universe (as irrelevant detail) and what comes out on the other end is what we consider as defining that universe.

"Christian" and "faith" are supposed to define a concept that is abstractly and vaguely common to two or more people, so trying to define (quantify) it doesn't make sense.

Anyway, please stay cool. Play fair. You're not the only one here who's full of ideas. Don't get so excited. Let people discover it for themselves. People might think you're picking a fight. You need to slowwww dowwwn..........

wil · 11-03-2006, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

But if we are saved by faith, and if faith is a gift from God then salvation, actual salvation and not just the possibility thereof, is a gift from God.

hmmm....and.....is there a problem?

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

hmmm....and.....is there a problem?

It just brings a couple of words to mind, "the elect"

Thomas · 11-03-2006, 07:02 PM

Hey Wil ... you are smokin!

Saltmeister:

You should also realise that the term "Christian" is subjective.
I don't think so - if it is then in the end it means nothing. Christ never said 'make of this what you will...' - he always pushed his people to understand what He meant, not what they made of what He meant?

Whether a person is "Christian" is not defined by a set of rules.
I can thinbk of two, from the Man Himself.

Nor is faith defined by a set of rules.
Again, I can think of sharp words from the Man which state quite the reverse, in no uncertain fashion.

The terms "Christian" and "faith" are both personal. They are defined by what they mean to you.

I would rather say the term 'Christian' and 'faith' express a paradigm, a perfection, embodied in the Incarnate Jesus, which someone who calls himself a Christian should strive towards.

A paradigm which is acknowledged, honoured and revered by the Masters of every authentic Spiritual Tradition (A Zen master heard the beatitudes and cried "That man is enlightened - I have been teaching that all my life!).

If it becomes personal, or subjective, then one begins to negotiate the paradigm into more amenable and acceptable, and desirable, terms. This is why religions are so adamant on their principles - invariably the argument is to water the thing down.

Language is a structural and systematic framework for conveying meaning, but human thinking is not restricted by such a framework.
If that is so, how are you sure you have understood the message correctly? Are you not assuming you have a right or viable meaning, attained by a system that is fallible and liable to error? Christ might as likely say to you 'that's not what I meant at all.' - where is your certitude?

I don't think we should put so much emphasis on getting the precise meaning of words. If I tried to define "Christian" or "faith," my definition may not make sense to you. Your's may not make sense to me. God made us all different and likewise we see different things as important. Our minds filter out different aspects of the universe (as irrelevant detail) and what comes out on the other end is what we consider as defining that universe.

Then we're back to square one - whatever Jesus said, we define the universe as we did before ... I don't think He would have made that mistake?

"Christian" and "faith" are supposed to define a concept that is abstractly and vaguely common to two or more people, so trying to define (quantify) it doesn't make sense.

Again I disagree - there are concrete examples everywhere that people can readily agree to, without doubt..

... Not trying to be argumentative (well, I am - but in a good natured way) but if, for a moment, we take Scripture and the incarnation as a mode of revelation, is not your philsophy saying we cannot understand it? That rather negates the whole point of Revelation.

In all I would say that is a very post-Enlightenment philosophy, and I can suggest a few philosophers who would argue that it is inherently flawed.

At base - if all, by your system, is uncertain - then how are you sure that this uncertainty applies to all?

Thomas