BK Religions - Page 4

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Would that then mean that faith is a gift from God?

Yes.

lunamoth · 11-03-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cav

Would that then mean that faith is a gift from God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yes.

Wondering what you all think of this. Faith is indeed a gift from God, but I would not want to leave the impression that those who find themselves lacking in faith (trust) have somehow been denied, or left unchosen by God. I think that the gift of faith is there for all to take; the difference is in making the choice to trust. I think that's why in John we hear so much about believing to be saved. Believing is making the conscious choice to trust the Way. Draw close to God so God can draw close to you. It's like a dance. Who leads? Who follows? When the music starts you both move together.

just a thought,
luna

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 07:57 PM

[quote=cyberpi;78001]

Quote:

Very well I shall lead the dance with one step and not the full marathon, yet I will also run the marathon with you if you, Dor, or FaithfulServant has the patience. I present the first step with one that I think you may appreciate:

Matthew 8:8-10 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great FAITH, no, not in Israel.

So it was not a Jew, it was not in Israel, and it was in the words of a man in the military of the Roman Empire where Jesus (pbuh) saw, at that point, the greatest Faith. What did Faith mean? Did the Centurion get it BK style?

Hardly. His heart was open and grace was given unto him. He being shrewd and understanding authority, accepted what was given to him as a matter of course. His faith, was perfect, with eyes wide open. There was no doubt as to the authority Jesus had. I understand this kind of faith. It is not developed, but God given. It is an absolute trust in the commanding authority. I also opine that had all men had the same "faith" there would have been great angst in putting the savior of man to death. It still would have been done, but not with any satisfaction.

Quote:

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Yes, the Centurion, or rather his servant, got it BK style, exactly as the Centurion asked and believed. Was the Centurion from Rome (a non-Jew and NOT from Israel) a Christian? Was it in the sacrament that the Centurion was worthy? Were his servants Christian perhaps? Were they all baptized Christians? Was this the least examples of Faith or the greatest example that Jesus (pbuh) had found at that point? Did the Centurion at least read the bible?

Again, hardly. Jesus promised as we believe so it shall be. However, the centurian did not ask for favors according to his own wishes, but called Jesus upon His own statement. The centurian asked Jesus to carry out what He'd already promised. In short, the centurian called Jesus on His mark, with absolute certainty that Jesus "COULD" fix things. What He was asking Jesus was "WOULD" He fix things, in this particular case. Oh, and is was in Israel that this occured. What the centurian did was give Jesus an opportunity to fulfill what He alread promised.

Jesus already set the "menu", and the centurian placed an order according to that "menu". Jesus delivered exactly as promised.

The centurian (unlike most people), trusted implicitely that Jesus would deliver.

v/r

Joshua

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wondering what you all think of this. Faith is indeed a gift from God, but I would not want to leave the impression that those who find themselves lacking in faith (trust) have somehow been denied, or left unchosen by God. I think that the gift of faith is there for all to take; the difference is in making the choice to trust. I think that's why in John we hear so much about believing to be saved. Believing is making the conscious choice to trust the Way. Draw close to God so God can draw close to you. It's like a dance. Who leads? Who follows? When the music starts you both move together.

just a thought,
luna

Many are called, few are "chosen" (meaning few accept the calling). Grace is there for us all, you are correct. We must choose to accept that grace, then act on it.

I agree with your thoughts on this Luna.

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Many are called, few are "chosen" (meaning few accept the calling). Grace is there for us all, you are correct. We must choose to accept that grace, then act on it.

I agree with your thoughts on this Luna.

v/r

Joshua

Ok, I see what you're getting at, but isn't there something in the Bible about it being impossible to turn away from God after being spoken to by the Holy Spirit? Something along those lines.

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, I see what you're getting at, but isn't there something in the Bible about it being impossible to turn away from God after being spoken to by the Holy Spirit? Something along those lines.

God promised man, He would not interfere with man's free will. He said nothing about influencing man's heart however...

But there is also the notice that God said, pertaining to the heart of man. Some will harden their hearts, to the point of stone. That implies free will (a decision), to ignore or reject what is offered.

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

God promised man, He would not interfere with man's free will.

Would you tell me where that promise can be found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But there is also the notice that God said, pertaining to the heart of man. Some will harden their hearts, to the point of stone. That implies free will

I can't argue with that, and I guess we both know I want to.

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Would you tell me where that promise can be found.
I can't argue with that, and I guess we both know I want to.

Here is a start:
"How does humanity affect the providence of God? (1) God works through people who voluntarily conform to the purpose or will of God (e.g., taking the Gospel to the world, Mark 16:15-16). (2) God will use other persons to achieve his will if one through his own free moral agency does not do the will of God (e.g., Esther 4:15)."

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Here is a start:
"How does humanity affect the providence of God? (1) God works through people who voluntarily conform to the purpose or will of God (e.g., taking the Gospel to the world, Mark 16:15-16). (2) God will use other persons to achieve his will if one through his own free moral agency does not do the will of God (e.g., Esther 4:15)."

v/r

Joshua

As for (1) it is only your assumption that they were voluntarily conforming
(2)"God will use other persons to achieve his will", I thought you said that God promised he would not interfere.

Interesting what's written in Esther 4:11

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

As for (1) it is only your assumption that they were voluntarily conforming
(2)"God will use other persons to achieve his will", I thought you said that God promised he would not interfere.

Interesting what's written in Esther 4:11

As for (1), no that too is biblical. Consider Mary, Job, Esther, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Joshua, Hosea, Paul, Peter, John, Lazarus, David, Enoch...they all said yes. As for (2), God did not interfere. He asked, and they said yes. He did not make their lives miserable at all (IOW, He did not compel them to act according to His will).

Oh, some of them doubted at first. But then, who wouldn't? And it wasn't doubt of God, but doubt of self to carryout what God designed for them...that is when God assured them His "grace" would be sufficient, and they accepted their charge.

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-03-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As for (1), no that too is biblical. Consider Mary, Job, Esther, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Joshua, Hosea, Paul, Peter, John, Lazarus, David, Enoch...they all said yes.

SO WHAT? People can say yes, but not of their own free will. People can also believe they act of their own free will, but do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

As for (2), God did not interfere. He asked, and they said yes. He did not make their lives miserable at all (IOW, He did not compel them to act according to His will).

If you use(your word) person A to get what you want from person B, then you are interfering with person B. You said God promised not to do this.

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

SO WHAT? People can say yes, but not of their own free will. People can also believe they act of their own free will, but do not.
If you use(your word) person A to get what you want from person B, then you are interfering with person B. You said God promised not to do this.

Oh. I guess there is no sense in continuing this dialogue, if you think we do not have free will.

God on the other hand will not push a person. He backs away. You are free to do as you see fit.

v/r

Joshua

cyberpi · 11-04-2006, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wondering what you all think of this. Faith is indeed a gift from God, but...

The definition of Faith I often see is: a belief, a religion, or believe or trust in someone or something. I don’t deny that those words get a person close. But if Faith is a gift and Faith is a belief, then how is a belief given? If Faith is the trust or the belief in someone or something, then how is that given to another person? How does God give Faith? How do you give Faith to another person?

By Love: I give you this blender because it is what I wanted for myself.
By Hate: I give you this lump of coal because it is what I hate.
By Truth: I give you this nutritious food because it is better for you than the box of chocolates that you wanted.
By Lie: I give you this sexy lingerie because I care about your needs.
By Hope: I give you this cookbook because I hope you will become a better cook.
By Fear: I give you this safety helmet because I fear you are going to crash.
By Control: I give you this punishment so that you won't do it again.
By Faith: What can I give you... how can I serve you? Or, what seed would you like to plant?

As I read it, the word Faith nearly means: BK style… Have it your way. As I read it, having Faith placed in you means being served per your will, and I think placing Faith in others means serving them per their will. That doesn’t mean the servant is NOT selective. In whom did Jesus (pbuh) place Faith? If a person knows how to give the good gifts, then who would deny it in kind from him?

Quahom1 · 11-04-2006, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

As I read it, the word Faith nearly means: BK style… Have it your way. As I read it, having Faith placed in you means being served per your will, and I think placing Faith in others means serving them per their will. That doesn’t mean the servant is NOT selective. In whom did Jesus (pbuh) place Faith? If a person knows how to give the good gifts, then who would deny it from him?

From St. Theresa's perspective (of Calcutta), she would have disagreed. She definitely did not get it her way, neither did those she cared for, but she never lost her faith either...

No BK there.

cyberpi · 11-04-2006, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

From St. Theresa's perspective (of Calcutta), she would have disagreed. She definitely did not get it her way, neither did those she cared for, but she never lost her faith either...

No BK there.

I seek the definition that Jesus (pbuh) described. You are welcome to use examples 1800+ years later, but I do not necessarily attribute it to Christianity.