Board re-structuring

[smkolins]

Opening the discussion of the evolution of the whole board could have opened up some ideas - of course there would be some noise but there could have been some meaningful development.

For example I would have suggested the corner icon be made central and larger to allow for more icons, rather than use any structuralization.

Along the same lines there is the question of the World Religions at left which still doesn't reflect the new structure even as it stands.....

[I, Brian]

Art, if some of your moderator functions were not working properly, you should really have informed me about this - I have been changing the overall moderator functions across the board, for example, to try and allow moderators to see user IP numbers (this is what immediately proved that Diamondsouled and Gnosticagape were the same person, for example).

Originally Posted by smkolins

Opening the discussion of the evolution of the whole board could have opened up some ideas - of course there would be some noise but there could have been some meaningful development.

Along the same lines there is the question of the World Religions at left which still doesn't reflect the new structure even as it stands.....

Certainly I'm not against feedback - there's an entire board here for that.

I know there are a few suggestions already on the table - Bandit has previously suggested a one-on-one debate board, and there were suggestions elsewhere that the forums that Sikhism should be in the Eastern Section; that we should have a Zoroastrian board; CanuckRasta asked in private for a Rastafarian board, and so on. Suggestions are always welcome, but for one reason or another, not all suggestions can be taken on board, at least, not all at the same time.

As for the structure on the left - indeed, there have been a number of changes for CR planned for some time, to help improve and expand what we can cover (including the long delayed Baha'i section). Hopefully I'll have something to announce on that, though possible later rather than sooner. It seemed important to bring at least some minor changes to the forums first, simply because it is the most dynamic and interactive part of the site.

[smkolins]

I'm curious if there is some feedback that can be had about how the board's activities have changed in light of the restructuring.

For myself I've noticed that my input in the monotheist discussion has dropped to almost none at all because I feel alienated from it and limited about what and how I can post. It would be as if I were in a discussion area about a particular religion and wanted to post about other religions even if within the sphere of the topic at hand.

Is this the intent of the monotheist area? So that Christians, Jews, and Moslems can discuss with eachother their own religions?

I have managed for sometimes years at a time in the past to participate in such areas by posts reflecting references in those scriptures. Such efforts are ussually met with some skepticism or criticism but can gain respect over time. Lately I seem out of that mode.

[arthra]

Steve,

Let's admit it, our role is sometimes in between and betwixt and ergo unpopular

Generally on another note, I think sometimes the problem maybe with the role of a Moderator/Administrator ...So you post things as a particpant... but your roles can conflict I think. So the roles have to be clear and separated from personal views. On this Comparative Religion Forum you would have to recognize the validity of some posts you might not accept as a particpant with your own view point.

Also I think it should be clear what it is we want to promote in the long run so we maintain a perspective over time.

- Art

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by arthra

Steve,

Let's admit it, our role is sometimes in between and betwixt and ergo unpopular

I rather agree.

But truth must be said rather than assuming it is known. Plans are set forth, and results as well.

Originally Posted by arthra

Generally on another note, I think sometimes the problem maybe with the role of a Moderator/Administrator ...So you post things as a particpant... but your roles can conflict I think. So the roles have to be clear and separated from personal views. On this Comparative Religion Forum you would have to recognize the validity of some posts you might not accept as a particpant with your own view point.

Also I think it should be clear what it is we want to promote in the long run so we maintain a perspective over time.

All true as well.

[I, Brian]

CR does a thankless job of trying to ensure that everybody across all religious denominations is given fair and equal treatment, and certainly those who have an elevated sense of self-importance are easily made to feel unwelcome.

I think a big part of the problem is that one or two Baha'is personally feel that CR should be a platform for promoting the Baha'i Faith, and that the removal of the Baha'i board from sitting beside Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, removes something of the high visibility the Baha'i board enjoyed previously.

For the record, my plan was that the Baha'i board was *always* going to form part of a Modern Religions section - we simply didn't have enough content to justify developing that part of the forums previously. That was the entire reason for the move.

I'm especially disappointed in your comments, Arthra - I made you a member of the CR staff, to represent the interests of the Baha'i community here.

However, you never once used the private staff room to communication recommendations, concerns or make suggestions; when Diamondsouled came in to disrupt the Baha'i board it was left to other members of staff to alert me to the problem; you didn't even inform me that you had concerns regarding your moderator functions not working properly; and you simply resigned without providing a proper explanation as to why.

In short, you have shunned every previous open and privileged channel of communication, and then abandoned without reason the responsibilities offered to you – then you turn around and use this thread to complain that we have not communicated with you. Excuse me while I fail to accept this as a valid argument.

Arthra and smkolins, if you feel unpopular, it is not due to any board policy towards Baha'i – and the sort of self-martyring attitude you refer to is frankly petulant and I have no interest in nourishing it from any quarter.

If either of you have difficulty communicating respectfully with people of other religions in a multi-faith environment, then that is your loss, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t imagine that your personal antagonisms therefore represent an otherwise oppressive treatment of Baha’i here.

As for CR staff suffering a conflict of interests – oh, they certainly do, because most of the time they are berated for their own beliefs when they get involved in discussions, but thanklessly hold from using their own Faith as a standard for judging a user’s contribution.

And should you feel that the Baha’i Faith has been seen critical discussion in some areas, then I strongly suggest you explore a range of Faith boards here and observe the dynamic tensions that often flare up across most every Faith here, precisely because we are held to account publicly for our beliefs, and not everybody shares the same beliefs, and sometimes are quite strongly in disagreement.

There are plenty of CR members and staff who would no doubt love to promote their own faith over others – but they take a decision in humility to accept that we must treat every faith equal here, even if it wildly disagrees with them.

But I will not stand for people of any faith to throw hospitality in our faces because we have provided them with their own board, to act as a safe-haven for discussion of their own faith, and even provided them with their own representative on the staff – and yet they say that this is not enough??

If you have any real complaints then please raise them, but so far all I’m hearing is that a couple of members have a very high opinion of their own Faith yet appear to demand special treatment of it above all the myriad of other faiths represented on CR – and that is obviously not what CR is here to do for anybody.

[arthra]

Thanks Brian...

You can call me Art...

It may have helped to have this exchange a little earlier a few weeks ago when or before some of this stuff came down.. I admit to you that I didn't use the "private staff" board that much... I observed it a few times but it didn't seem that interesting to me so rarely checked it. My "bad". I suppose if you had any anxiety about my participating there you could have contacted me?

All I can say from my part is that I've been open to you in the past year or so as a moderator and appreciated some of your comments and ideas. I felt sometimes though there were conflicts in your roles as partcipant and administrator but it sounds like from your view, you were actually trying to be fair...so I give that to you.

My view of the past two weeks and the reason i withdrew was that i didn't feel you allowed me to moderate when i needed to... so what's the use of that?

But hey and whatever..

I noticed a sensitivity you have in some posts that I'm shamelessly promoting my Faith and see the last board re-structuring in a negative light...My only goal is to see that our Faith is accurately portrayed and while unhappy with the change of restructuring ..only recommend that there have been more consultation before hand among participants.

Since you dislike my posting on this thread I'll shutup already. But is that what you really want? I promise not to demand any special treatment from you.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Art, I'm sure you'll appreciate there are challenges in trying to find commonalities in a community founded on recognising differences and exploring them.

From an administrative standpoint, it's not just about keeping order, but also promoting discussions. I'll try to ask questions to raise topics, and also will argue a point for the sake of balance in the discussion at hand. At the end of the day, though, I neither expect nor demand to be agreed with - but if some questions can stimulate interesting discussion, then that can only be enriching for the community overall.

[I, Brian]

ADDENDUM: I agree that the past few weeks have been disruptive for the Baha'i community here - hopefully we're moving on from that, as I have nothing against valid feedback and complaints where raised. It does feel that this thread is serving more to communicate those feelings of disruption, though. Hopefully we can move on from that and continue more constructively, though.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I think a big part of the problem is that one or two Baha'is personally feel that CR should be a platform for promoting the Baha'i Faith, and that the removal of the Baha'i board from sitting beside Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, removes something of the high visibility the Baha'i board enjoyed previously.

This sounds so odd to my ears. I have myself, and witnessed many others, defending Christianity to Moslems, among other combinations, and the reverses as well.

The most outrageous behavior I recall was of someone avowadly by the end of the threads not a Baha'i any longer. I have recently reviewed an obscure speech of Khomeini in which someone has bothered to trace various footnotes one of which refers to the Baha'i Faith, and specifically to the machinations of one of those subgroups which do not fall within the generally accepted body of the followers of Baha'u'llah! (Note sideways again on why Baha'is tend to present formal references to answer questions - how would you like to be quoted by someone of such ill repute as a reason for his point of view!? In the words of Capt. Picard from the first episodes of STNG, "If we're to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are.")

CR should and largely is a forum for members of diverse religions to discuss with eachother without becoming too outrageous. While I wish a dignified presentation of the Baha'i Faith I wish extactly the same for all the religions of humanity as a body. Should I find such a forum lacking serious presentation of one of the major religions I would endevour to present a serious review of that religion. I have done it in the past, however rare the major religions of the day would not be presented in such forums.

However, with respect to my own participation, the decision of restructing the board continues to present a divisive influence - it mechancally and legalistically prevents me from participating on a major forum. I was frustrated and as a contributer to the forum I wanted to make my experience seen clearly. As a compliment I, recognizing such difficulties, am striving to participate in other ways.

As another form of the same problem I recently offered a post in the Baha'i section which referenced a paper reviewing issues about armageddon. Most of the paper refers to Islam, Christian, and Judaic references. Such is the measure of which the Baha'i Faith relates to them. And yet such a contribution to ongoing discussions about this cannot have this contribution.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Arthra and smkolins, if you feel unpopular, it is not due to any board policy towards Baha'i – and the sort of self-martyring attitude you refer to is frankly petulant and I have no interest in nourishing it from any quarter.

I urge you to consider the situation from a non-personal point of view. If we claim we are misunderstood, perhaps we are. I have no problem supposing that the purpose of the restructuring has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith perse. But clearly it's affect on Hare Krishna and others is tiny, if nothing else because their presense was tiny to begin with. However, beyond the mechanical effect, the Baha'i Faith cannot concieve of itself without reference intimitately to other religions - it is in our scripture. To you it may make sense that we are significantly a modern religion. To us that is incidental - to us we are just the latest in a continuous process in the large picture. As we have a strong relationship to various Faiths we are now very excluded from speaking among those various Faiths from a perspective of our scripture. And that contribution is not just another way of being devisive. We have repeatedly offered references which attempt to bridge apparently irreconsilable positions.

The position is even more difficult - the Baha'i Faith is related to Hinduism and Buddhism as well. Including them in a single discussion scheme would be even further from what is in practice.

However to a practical extent, we are in the west, and western religions dominate, so relationships with the Baha'i Faith and these religions also has a strong influence in the background and sphere of familiarity among Baha'is. Should this discussion area be host in the middle or far east a similar dynamic would result as those Baha'is are largely familiar with the relationships among those issues. But then participation might well not be dominated by english despite the limitations of the web. Additionally, for whatever reason, of the references to other religions in the Baha'i Scriptures, the dominant proportion I've seen are to the Abrahamic Faiths, followed by Zoroastrian, which I might content is also Abrahamic, and then Hindu and Buddhist....

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If you have any real complaints then please raise them, but so far all I’m hearing is that a couple of members have a very high opinion of their own Faith yet appear to demand special treatment of it above all the myriad of other faiths represented on CR – and that is obviously not what CR is here to do for anybody.

I am not aware of how the restructuring has affected the other religions (save I think I was the first to note that the other religions in the monotheist area would object to being refered to by largely a Moslem term.) It seems to me that at least generally there was little practical change and no theological issues aggravated that weren't already present if felt already. I would hardly expect members of other faiths to know why or why not what happened to the Baha'i Faith in the structure of things seems fair or not.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by smkolins

I have myself, and witnessed many others, defending Christianity to Moslems, among other combinations, and the reverses as well.

Indeed, but generally Faith boards are treated as a "safe" place to discuss a particular faith, so pro-Islamic threads on the Christian board should only last until a moderator is aware of the thread and either moves or removes it.

Originally Posted by smkolins

The most outrageous behavior I recall was of someone avowadly by the end of the threads not a Baha'i any longer.

I assure you, there is far more disruption at CR! We are a magnet for New Age Prophets, Christian Evangalisers, and Muslims looking to aggressively promote their religion. And a variety of other stuff besides. Most of which is hopefully well removed before most members see it, though sometimes, unfortunately, we are not so quick to recognise a problem until concerned members finally start PM'ing me about specific threads.

Originally Posted by smkolins

However, with respect to my own participation, the decision of restructing the board continues to present a divisive influence - it mechancally and legalistically prevents me from participating on a major forum.

Not at all - CR is a forum for individual members to discuss their individual beliefs - you are free to discuss issues in any board. Sometimes members will not wish to, but in my opinion this is simply missing out on the wider riches of CR.

Hope that helps.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Not at all - CR is a forum for individual members to discuss their individual beliefs - you are free to discuss issues in any board. Sometimes members will not wish to, but in my opinion this is simply missing out on the wider riches of CR.

Hope that helps.

I don't know how that can be done if messages are pulled willy-nilly on the premise that someone MIGHT be offended.
"The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 87)

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I don't know how that can be done if messages are pulled willy-nilly on the premise that someone MIGHT be offended.
"The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 87)

Messages are not pulled willy-nilly from the board - but posting multiple threads attacking another religion to promote your own is not acceptable by *anyone* at CR - and precisely why your two threads were removed, as you are well aware of and why I refered you to the Code of Conduct.

If that is a problem for anyone to deal with then they really shouldn't be posting at CR - CR is not a soapbox for individuals to promote their personal perception of faith, but instead a platform for interfaith dialogue that has to be kept on an even level for *everybody*.