Body of God

[mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

No, you disturb people with your disturbing distubances.

Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth Daniel 2;44 . and it certainly goes against the grain.

[mee]

[quote=Quahom1;135261]

Originally Posted by mee

And Jesus isn't running CR,

v/r

Q

did i say he was?


he is feeding these ones matthew 24;45-47 and then they give it out to others .......... mee and i am spiritually well feed.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Mee, it is time for you to **** or get off the pot. Sorry to be so blunt, but we have been patient with you for several years. We want to know what Mee thinks. Not the elders.

v/r

Q

why have you been patient with me? i have only spoken about the promises in the bible and the goodnews of the kingdom why is that an issue ? i love bringing the promises of God to the fore ,and i love the way that the bible is a book of prophecy, especially the prophecies relating to the last days Daniel 2;44. and best of all i love the fact that Jesus is now a reigning king Daniel 7; 13;14 and he has been given great aurthority.


why is that wrong ? or is it that you dont want it to be brought to the fore ?

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth Daniel 2;44 . and it certainly goes against the grain.

No it is because you are in a christian forum, putting down the divinity of Jesus Christ as our Lord God and Saviour, which is very insulting those who through the Spirit of God know that Jesus is God. It is because you are in a christian forum where date setting is considered false prophecy and you continue to re-iterate that which we are warned by God to be wary of is very troubling. Rather than discussing any questions you may have about it or making any intelligent argument for the sake of discussion, or making your point and leaving it at a certain point out of courtesy and moving on, you incessantly copy and paste to attack core beliefs.

[path_of_one]

I think that more or less sums it up. Again, mee, you never responded to my questions or points, but simply repeated what you already said.

Read Revelations... a date is never mentioned at all. 1914 is not in there. Yes, in Revelations it says Christ will return. It does not say when, and it is does not say anything about the JW church.

If it is not in the Bible, then some church made it up. Now, maybe they made it up based on some valid experience in their own eyes, but that is for each person to assess on his/her own with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I'm not just going to buy into something because some magazine or church says it is so. Why? Because the Bible tells me to be wary of false prophecy, and to keep steadfastly to Christ's message, which was to "take up my cross and follow Him."

The Gospels, and indeed the entire NT, say nothing of particular dates or the JW church or anything of the sort. Given the choice, I will stick with the basics of what the Gospels say and I'll focus my efforts on that. I think you misunderstand me, mee. (LOL- that's a little funny me... mee.) I don't advocate any doctrine whatsoever. I advocate reading Christ's words and the Bible for oneself, and then putting them into practice. Mine is a simple, basic form of Christianity. Jesus said to do X, so go do it. Jesus' life showed this example, so follow it.

I don't form much doctrine, because I am not focused on reward or punishment, and I don't feel the need to define God. I worship God because well, God is God. Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord because I experienced salvation through Him, and I committed to cling to Him. I follow Jesus' example and message to the best of my ability and repent when I fail, because that is what Jesus tells us to do through the Gospels.

It isn't that complicated, mee. You keep arguing I follow "manmade doctrine," when my point is that I don't really have any doctrines. 1914 and Jesus being Michael and all that jazz sound a lot like doctrine to me, especially because they aren't anywhere in the Bible.

I don't have any of that. Jesus said He will return, so I believe it. He said it will come stealthily and basically, don't worry about it, but rather live as if each day is your last because that is what is RIGHT. So I do. I put my focus on living the message as best I can, loving as much as I can, and being grateful to God for what has already been given. As I fail, I repent, and I know that God saves me by grace because that is what Jesus said.

I guess I practice the KISS version of Christianity (keep it simple, sweetie). No doctrine, no dates to worry about, no "who is in or out," no divisions in the Body of God, no real leaders on Earth. Just... "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the other commandments."

[Gatekeeper]

Originally Posted by mee

Maybe its because i am putting over bible truth Daniel 2;44 . and it certainly goes against the grain.

Hi mee, Belief and knowledge are two seperate things. We can believe so strongly that we 'think' we know for sure, [That belongs to each individual] but the reality is that none of us 'know' absolutely. I admire your passion, and your zeal for what 'you' hold as truth. The reality however, is that you and your church is just as fallable as the rest of us, and ours. I'm all for listening to the JW view point, but I'm not one [never have been] to be told by others what to believe. God is my authority, as is Christ. I will rely on them to reveal to me truth. I might allow you, or other JW's - if you are able to make a strong case, to influence me, however.When I ask a question, I expect an answer - If you can't provide me with an honest [I don't know], or a valid answer to my question, I'll likely ignore anything you have to say. That's the truth of it, mee. If you want to be a good witness, then listen first, cool? That way, you will better able to directly answer the questions that others ask. An honest, I don't know, or an honest - I/we view it this way - should suffice.[My two cents]

[mee]

Originally Posted by Gatekeeper

Hi mee, Belief and knowledge are two seperate things. We can believe so strongly that we 'think' we know for sure, [That belongs to each individual] but the reality is that none of us 'know' absolutely. I admire your passion, and your zeal for what 'you' hold as truth. The reality however, is that you and your church is just as fallable as the rest of us, and ours. I'm all for listening to the JW view point, but I'm not one [never have been] to be told by others what to believe. God is my authority, as is Christ. I will rely on them to reveal to me truth. I might allow you, or other JW's - if you are able to make a strong case, to influence me, however.When I ask a question, I expect an answer - If you can't provide me with an honest [I don't know], or a valid answer to my question, I'll likely ignore anything you have to say. That's the truth of it, mee. If you want to be a good witness, then listen first, cool? That way, you will better able to directly answer the questions that others ask. An honest, I don't know, or an honest - I/we view it this way - should suffice.[My two cents]

do you think that the early cristian congregation was formed or do you think that there wasnt one ? and yes as you say we have to listen i do plenty of that .

[mee]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

It isn't that complicated, mee. You keep arguing I follow "manmade doctrine," when my point is that I don't really have any doctrines. 1914 and Jesus being Michael and all that jazz sound a lot like doctrine to me, especially because they aren't anywhere in the Bible.

i dont say that you are following anything, i am talking about the centuries old manmade docrines that have been around for centuries ,and many have been misled by them . only you yourself know if you believe in them.

make no mistake about it , the time that we are living in NOW is certainly the time that the bible points to ,and it is because the sincere bible students back in the 1800s did not fall asleep and they kept awake to bible prophecy, that they have been blessed with understanding indeed ,and yes the knowledge is now abundant indeed Daniel 12;4


the reason that most christians are in the dark when it comes to this understanding , is because Jesus only feeds and gives understanding to one class of people ,and it is the one the bible foretold . matthew 24;45-47 i am not saying that you as an individual are not trying to live a good life lots of people are trying their best . but when it comes to understanding and especially about bible prophecy , the insight is given to those who are chosen . the fact is we could all get a bee in our bonnet and shrug our shoulders and not believe that Jesus has a faithful channel , but that is the situation , especially since when Jesus came into kingdom power ,and 1914 was the appointed times of the nations (or the end of the gentile times ) the manmade goverments have had their day and Jesus is a reigning king ,and he will shortly at the command from his father go into action to step into the affairs of man Daniel 2;44.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by mee

i dont say that you are following anything, i am talking about the centuries old manmade docrines that have been around for centuries ,and many have been misled by them . only you yourself know if you believe in them.

OK, fair enough. But I still hold that you have not shown any of us that your own ideas about 1914 and whatnot are not "manmade doctrine." I still ask if you can offer Biblical proof.

make no mistake about it , the time that we are living in NOW is certainly the time that the bible points to ,and it is because the sincere bible students back in the 1800s did not fall asleep and they kept awake to bible prophecy, that they have been blessed with understanding indeed ,and yes the knowledge is now abundant indeed Daniel 12;4

Prove it. There are dozens of groups out there who claim to have the Real Answers of Bible Prophecy. Prove that the JW one is the correct one.

the reason that most christians are in the dark when it comes to this understanding , is because Jesus only feeds and gives understanding to one class of people ,and it is the one the bible foretold . matthew 24;45-47

You are being repetitive without answering my questions. I already discussed this Bible quote several pages ago and asked you to prove that the "faithful servant" is undeniably correctly interpreted as "one class of people" and that this, in turn, can be undeniably interpreted as the JW church. If you can't do that, then there is no proof that your Bible quote is backing up what you are saying. Yours is ONE interpretation of that quote among many. Given different interpretations, I will stick with the one that demands the fewest non-Biblical assumptions and go with what the Bible says rather than what you say it says.

I suggest that if you want me (or any non-JW) to count this Bible verse as evidence for the JW church being the ONE and ONLY servant, that you prove that is the case.

i am not saying that you as an individual are not trying to live a good life lots of people are trying their best . but when it comes to understanding and especially about bible prophecy , the insight is given to those who are chosen .

OK, whatever you say. Personally, I have an interest in following Christ. I was not instructed by Christ to spend my life worrying about Bible prophecy. In fact, Jesus said "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 18:3). I've never known little kids to worry much about dates, prophecy, and whatever. They are content that God loves them and to try their best. They trust with a simple trust, not needing complicated answers to follow their faith.

Maybe some people are driven to know all about prophecy, but I am not. In fact, despite having a keen intellectual interest in patterns, theories and so forth (and using that for my profession), I have felt guided by the Holy Spirit to avoid all that in my spiritual life as a Christian. I am not a simplistic Christian because I am intellectually lazy. I am that way because I felt called to practice a simple life of faith.

I don't need ideas about the date and time of Jesus' return and things like that. It doesn't matter. If I live my life each day like tomorrow I could die or Jesus could return, my life is as good as it is going to get. I have faith that God loves me, saved me through grace, and that is enough. I don't need or want the rest, and the Holy Spirit has told me without question that I am not to pursue it.

Now whether that is true for others, I would never say. I can't tell other people what is the right path for them. I would appreciate if other people didn't presume to know what the right path is for me.

the fact is we could all get a bee in our bonnet and shrug our shoulders and not believe that Jesus has a faithful channel , but that is the situation , especially since when Jesus came into kingdom power ,and 1914 was the appointed times of the nations (or the end of the gentile times ) the manmade goverments have had their day and Jesus is a reigning king ,and he will shortly at the command from his father go into action to step into the affairs of man Daniel 2;44.

Again, I have asked many times for proof. There must be some Biblical reason why you say 1914 and all that. What is it? (And Dan 2:44 says nothing about 1914).

[mee]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Again, I have asked many times for proof. There must be some Biblical reason why you say 1914 and all that. What is it? (And Dan 2:44 says nothing about 1914).

1914 ASignificant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by mee

1914 ASignificant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians.

Does the Bible say that God's rulership began to be "trampled on by the nations" in 607 BCE, or is that the JW interpretation of that verse? Does the Bible state a particular year?

"Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

Are you quite certain that no other has legal right? How do you justify that interpretation?

When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.

In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5)

Yes, sometimes, and sometimes not. How do we know if the tree meant rulership in this case? Isn't that interpretation rather than what is plainly in the Bible? Of course, it could be a metaphor, but then metaphors do not plainly state what their meaning is.

So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?

Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days."
"Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall.

So, logically, either the prophecy didn't mean what they thought it meant. Or a "time" in Daniel was different from a "time" in Revelation. Which is plausible to me, given the span of time in between the two authors and the lack of explanation of what is meant in Daniel.

Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

Evidently? Not really. That would mean there is solid evidence for all of this. What I see is a lot of interpretation and leaping around in the Bible, piecing stuff together out of context to make it mean what people want it to mean. First, a "time" means X number of days. Then, you take another passage from somewhere else (that isn't even talking about the same thing, or in the same manner- read it in CONTEXT) and voila, we'll say it means X number of years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

This is where it all falls apart to me. Well, more than the earlier issues. I don't see where it clearly says when the "appointed times of the nations" ended that it coincides with Jesus being installed as God's heavenly King.

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

Actually, we've had war, famine, earthquakes, and pestilences since the beginning of agriculture. (Well, actually before that, but it was really marked at the beginning of agriculture.) If you study world history, you'll find that we actually have LESS of some of these problems than we did before. When the Plague swept Europe, fatalities were sometimes as high as 60%. When Smallpox hit the Americas, some areas saw fatalities of 90%. By comparison, today we have excellent vaccines for most diseases. In fact, most of the world's deaths are preventable with modern medicine. It isn't more pestilence, it's that we haven't gotten modern health care out to everyone yet, and much of the world lives in poverty.

We have more than enough food for everyone in the world. There are not famines based on lack of food. There are famines based on political problems and lack of equal distribution. But in fact, the average person has less risk of starvation than ever before.

As for war, check out what happened in the Dark Ages, when most people's villages were routinely trampled over and torture was frequent. Yeah, we have wars and they are awful. But we've had wars for thousands of years and they've been awful. Even the OT is full of wars.

I'd have to search out some geology reports to see if earthquakes have increased. But you see, it isn't like this stuff happened yesterday, or even got worse yesterday. Blaming it all on non-fixable causes also just abdicates our responsibility to make a better world.

No offense, but I've heard this all before from other JWs. And it still sounds like a whole lot of leaping around, taking passages out of context to mean whatever you want, and interpretation of metaphorical passages. It takes, in short, a lot of manmade thinking to get from point A to Z. Otherwise, you would not have had to even explain all this-- it'd be in the Bible in the first place.

I'll just stick to the basic text and following Jesus' example. But I thank you for putting out what is up with the 1914 belief.

[/quote]

[mee]

Beyond all doubt, the evidence points to 1914 as the year when the kingdom of God went into operation, and that event is causing things to happen here on earth. In that same year "the present wicked system of things" entered its "last days." (Galatians 1:4) Soon, now, the prayer for God’s kingdom to "come" will be answered, when it displays its great power by destroying Satan’s entire wicked system. Then God’s kingdom alone will operate as the one government to rule the earth throughout eternity. (Daniel 2:44) Taking direct control of all earth’s affairs, it will shower down on obedient mankind blessings of peace, happiness and life. The prayer for ‘God’s will to take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,’ will have had glorious fulfillment, for God’s kingdom will have come to rule forever. And think of it! You may enjoy eternal life under the loving rule of that kingdom.—Matthew 6:9, 10.

[path_of_one]

Beyond all doubt for you, but not for me (obviously, see above).

I just focus on the basics, mee. I love Jesus, worship God, try to follow Christ's example. I figure I don't need all the details. If I love God and my neighbor, I trust God will take care of the rest. It's not about the rewards to me, it's about what is right. If I'm rewarded great. If not, God deserved praise and my fellow beings deserved my love anyway.

[mee]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Beyond all doubt for you, but not for me (obviously, see above).

Yes as you say there is no doubt that i can see the fullfilling of bible prophecy and the chronology of the bible, but many do not see it .

[path_of_one]

And for many, that just isn't their focus. Living out Jesus' message as best I can is my focus, and the focus of countless other Christians. I'm not focused on prophecy and chronology.