Borat....

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 02:53 PM

Just curious to how this comes across and such? For those of you who know Borat/Ali G..... His Borat character is very anti Jewish and in his latest film there is quite alot of hatred for Jewish people... Like it's comedy... But, very packed with hatred when it comes to Jewish people... Now, is this acceptable because he is a Jew? If I made jokes about a Jew and portraied such a hatred for them... It wouldn't go down well, but because he is a Jew that's OK? Or is it seen as he is some sort of "disgrace" to the Jewish faith.... Or what?

bananabrain · 05-04-2007, 04:58 PM

i grew up with sb-c (he was in the year below me at school and moved in similar youth movement circles) and we still have some friends in common, at least at second-hand. he's not the most religious chap, but is certainly jewishly literate and community-affiliated. the thing you have to remember about borat is that he is there (like ali g) to expose the way people really think, to hang people up by their own prejudices and stupidity, to puncture pomposity and pious humbug and if that reveals latent anti-semitism (or islamophobia, or jingoism, or racism, or sexism, or just plain ignorance, or a mound of different things) along the way that's no bad thing. his approach to anti-semitism is something that i particularly enjoy, because it shows up just how stupid, irrational and downright lunatic it is. i laughed myself sick at the film, particularly at "the running of the jews" and the bit where he freaks out when he discovers his hosts for the night are jewish and he thinks they've turned into cockroaches and throws money at them to try and appease them. the fact is there are people who think like this and only by laughing at them and showing how ridiculous it really is can it be defeated. call it the power of embarrassment if you will. the fact is that the depth of hatred for jews, both active and passive, goes very deep in some areas. it also amuses me quite considerably that when he says stuff in "kazakhstani" or whatever the language is supposed to be, it is normally hebrew!

in a way what sb-c does is no different from an investigative reporter using a hidden camera - he is just undercover and finding out how people talk to foreigners, or people they think are stupid. i frankly admire his sheer chutzpah - the man has the biggest cojones i have ever encountered, the brass neck of talos, more front than brighton. i have to take my hat off to someone that takes as big risks as he does. i admit some of his stuff is very uncomfortable - i wonder what he would reveal if he went undercover in the jewish community, or in the muslim community, or wherever....? satire and lampoon is always better received from within - the kazakhs have had a number of sense-of-humour failures in this respect, for a start! but as things stand, as a satirist, he's a source of pride for anglo-jewry and those are few and far between.

i say good on him and may there be more satire as good as this out there. it certainly knocks smug gits like rory bremner into a cocked hat.

b'shalom

bananabrain

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 05:03 PM

You don't think it encourages it? I am normally fine anti-anything lol.... And I am an ex-member of Combat 18... (neo nazi movment) but.... When I saw "Mrs Jew" lay the egg... And all the children instructed to crush the egg before the Jew chick could spread it's wings... It touched something in me... And I for a split second felt sick.... The rest of that film I couldn't really focus on it, as I just kept going back in my mind to that moment.....

But, impressive you can take it as just a comedy... My hat is off to you.

Miss Amy · 05-04-2007, 05:21 PM

FWIW

I think that not everybody is at the level to understand that it is just comedy or that he means no harm or that he wants to expose anything. I think that is giving a lot of credit that people are going to think very deeply about a movie that... is... not...deep.

I am extremely uncomfortable with that type of comedy. When you live with cetain types of prejudice each day, I don't think it is funny to see it reflected as comedy.

bananabrain · 05-04-2007, 05:23 PM

if you are an ex-member of C18 (!!!!!!!!!) and you can write something like this:

Quote:

It touched something in me... And I for a split second felt sick.... The rest of that film I couldn't really focus on it, as I just kept going back in my mind to that moment.....

then the film does something really, really important. because that's a normal, human reaction and shows you as such.

the fact is that ridicule is one of the strongest weapons human culture has yet developed to defeat hatred and intolerance. i think borat has just proved this to both of us.

b'shalom

bananabrain

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 05:26 PM

My own actions changed my heart, not the film... That is just apart of the chain effect... But seriously, wow... I would find it hard to "rise above" it... I can see where you are coming from, but I believe Amy also has a valid point.

bananabrain · 05-04-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

I am extremely uncomfortable with that type of comedy. When you live with cetain types of prejudice each day, I don't think it is funny to see it reflected as comedy.

i guess that's the point - comedy doesn't detract from the prejudice, but it does make the prejudice itself seem ridiculous and extreme, which, of course, it is. if some people don't understand the satire then, fair enough. the more fool them for paying money to see it!

b'shalom

bananabrain

dauer · 05-04-2007, 05:38 PM

I have to agree completely with BB and I think generally it's the type of reaction you'll get from the Jewish community. I saw something on a shared Jewish blog when the movie came out citing different articles about how there were some communities that were outraged by what he was doing, but the Jewish community was generally just praising him.

He's a lot like Archie Bunker I think, in that he's there to expose ignorance and not to actually ridicule minorities. Archie though had more depth, because he also revealed how those who hold ignorance and bias are still just as human as everyone else which is imo a very important lesson.

Dauer

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 05:42 PM

Would you say that very paragraph if say it was me doing it? (Just curious is all.)

bananabrain · 05-04-2007, 05:48 PM

i think it depends on what you did. we've got a very large "funnybone", but generally there's so much jewish humour around that non-jews don't tend to get a look in - although that might be funny just from a novelty angle. self-mockery is generally easier to do because some sympathy can be assumed, whereas mockery from without is not the same. did you watch "goodness gracious me"? that was funny because it was self-mockery, but didn't stop other ethnic minorities watching it and going "gosh, my mum/auntie/uncle acts like that, hur hur hur" - not just every jewish person, but every chinese/italian/greek/turkish/irish person i ever met in the uk thought ggm was a hoot. in that way, the immigrant/minority experience is shared...whilst in the same way we discover a shared englishness.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Miss Amy · 05-04-2007, 05:48 PM

I am not arguing that any of you may be right or wrong.

I just don't like it. But... I am in a multi-racial relationship. I am the white-blue-eyed but my partner is not. And I cannot tolerate any type of that behaviour in jest or not becuase to me it is just not funny ever. I am a bit jaded and bitter simply becuase we live in a culture in the 2000's that still gets it's kicks at other people's expense.

I really, really hate it.

The disclaimer to this would be that I have been accused of having a very, very poor sense of humour and a way too serious personality.

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i think it depends on what you did. we've got a very large "funnybone", but generally there's so much jewish humour around that non-jews don't tend to get a look in - although that might be funny just from a novelty angle. self-mockery is generally easier to do because some sympathy can be assumed, whereas mockery from without is not the same. did you watch "goodness gracious me"? that was funny because it was self-mockery, but didn't stop other ethnic minorities watching it and going "gosh, my mum/auntie/uncle acts like that, hur hur hur" - not just every jewish person, but every chinese/italian/greek/turkish/irish person i ever met in the uk thought ggm was a hoot. in that way, the immigrant/minority experience is shared...whilst in the same way we discover a shared englishness.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Exactly the same "gags" he uses... Taking my history..

ex C18.. I lure Jews through the street with money as bait

Then crush the baby Jew before it can walk... Or later on convert to christianity... (later in the movie) and impale a Jew on a cross and gouge him with a pitchfork....

Miss Amy · 05-04-2007, 05:57 PM

what is a C18?

17th Angel · 05-04-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Amy

what is a C18?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Combat 18... (neo nazi movment)

A group of racist thugs/terrorists...... Lacking an open mind and so stuck up their own backsides with false pride...

-edit-

Just to also let you know incase your ponder what 18 stands for.... 1 = A 8 = H Adolf Hitler....

bananabrain · 05-04-2007, 06:05 PM

c18 are a very nasty neo-nazi group indeed. 17th - it doesn't sound that funny to *me*. i believe the joke is that you're supposed to think the person doing these things is an idiot and that the acts themselves are ridiculous and stupid. what you are suggesting just sounds kind of scary. like i say, borat is clearly someone you're supposed to laugh at. if the "running of the jews" thing had been a set-up, say in pakistan or saudi arabia or iran, it would have been much less funny, because that's precisely the sort of nastiness some people over there believe. that's what the bathetic treatment of it by sb-c is satirising.

i think you get my point.

b'shalom

bananabrain