Buddhism... Misunderstanding?

[Alex P]

I wished to ask a question.... As I am not sure if I understand or not, but it seems if I understand, then, buddhist misunderstand, if you know what I mean....

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth; look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself." So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

[Snoopy]

Of course you should drive your own car but if you decide that you're driving in circles I offer you the atlas.

s.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex P,

thank you for the post.

there are, of course, many different beings and these beings vary in their capacity to practice the Dharma so one approach may be better for one being than for another.

that said the most common expression regarding this idea is such:

Buddhas open the door however each being walks through on their own.

metta,

~v

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Of course you should drive your own car but if you decide that you're driving in circles I offer you the atlas.

s.

So guidelines advice.... I get it.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Alex P,

thank you for the post.

there are, of course, many different beings and these beings vary in their capacity to practice the Dharma so one approach may be better for one being than for another.

that said the most common expression regarding this idea is such:

Buddhas open the door however each being walks through on their own.

metta,

~v

So by, capacity to pratice the dharma, you're speaking of like abilitly levels... So there are some swimming wings down there for the ones that need it... Or like the atlas for the car...

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Alex P

So by, capacity to pratice the dharma, you're speaking of like abilitly levels... So there are some swimming wings down there for the ones that need it... Or like the atlas for the car...

well.. not like you are a 35th level mage or something like that that said, the teachings are progressive in the sense that you can start at one point and move along the Path as the beings capacity for practice increases.

metta,

~v

[Alex P]

Namaste Alex P,

thank you for the post.

I meant of intelligence...

well.. it is certainly possible to use innate intelligence to study the Suttas and come to an intellectual assent to the teachings and even to experience Samadhi but intelligence, per se, isn't required for the attainment of the final fruit of practice. there's a wonderful Zen mondo called "The Cucumber Sage" which i can post here though it's easy enough to find if you'd like to search for it and it deals with precisely the idea that intelligence is not the thing. ones intellect is also not a barrier to realization of the final fruit either. you will find schools that place greater emphasis on different aspects of the teachings, some that emphasize a learned method of dialetic debate and others which eschew such activities altogether.

metta,

~v

[Francis king]

alex...

Buddha here was right- you cannot be a buddhist based on understandings given to you by another- this is no realisation... rather, it is a sublimation of another's way, which is never the way...

buddhism is all about insight... the insights of another will maybe point you in the right direction, but they will never be your own insights...

lots of buddhists annoy the merry hell out of me... because this advice of Buddha's they do not take... buddhism is not a group religion- it is an individual philosophy... or at least, thats my take on it...

most buddhist teachers from the old school, such as Candrakirti, say that a teacher is not neccessary to learn about buddhism... in fact, a teacher can be a hindrance, rather than a help...

of course, if you are a moron and need somebody else to tell you what to do and think, then yes, find a teacher, bow and scrape and pay them lipservice, but you will not learn much about buddhism this way... all you will do is learn a few neat phrases you can parrot back, and you will learn all about serving assholes who generally, arent fit to wipe your backside...

I have lost count of the number of so-called teachers I have met who lack even a rudimentary knowledge of the dharma... why are they teachers?

because they are ego-trippers... they want ppl to bury their noses in their little brown rings because it makes them feel special... they like to see rows of eager faces looking up at them for guidance- most of them stink...

you want to learn about buddhism? read the texts, practise samatha meditation... that's all you need to do...

as for... some people not being intelligent enough to study buddhism for themselves and need a teacher- absolute rubbish... this is a line often trotted out by dodgy buddhists who want you to join their gang...

all you need to practise buddhism is a mind and a body and average intelligence... most people have this already....

gurus need pupils, it is not pupils who need gurus...

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Francis king

gurus need pupils, it is not pupils who need gurus...

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I wished to ask a question.... As I am not sure if I understand or not, but it seems if I understand, then, buddhist misunderstand, if you know what I mean....

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth; look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself." So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

"seeking truth' is the absolute. Meaning as yesterday evolution was not believed by religions, fact is we see it everwhere even as knowledge evolves.

The buddha is not suggesting chant but to humble yourself to learning and retaining absolute truth over and above belief.

here is a quote of another old "Buddha"

" believe nothing no matter where you read it or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. "

[Vajradhara]

sorry Alex!

i clicked the wrong button on your reply to me! i ended up replying by editing your post

metta,

~v

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

"seeking truth' is the absolute. Meaning as yesterday evolution was not believed by religions, fact is we see it everwhere even as knowledge evolves.

The buddha is not suggesting chant but to humble yourself to learning and retaining absolute truth over and above belief.

here is a quote of another old "Buddha"

" believe nothing no matter where you read it or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense. "

That's good advice :P

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

sorry Alex!

i clicked the wrong button on your reply to me! i ended up replying by editing your post

metta,

~v

God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[toujour_333]

Originally Posted by Francis king

alex...

Buddha here was right- you cannot be a buddhist based on understandings given to you by another- this is no realisation... rather, it is a sublimation of another's way, which is never the way...

buddhism is all about insight... the insights of another will maybe point you in the right direction, but they will never be your own insights...

lots of buddhists annoy the merry hell out of me... because this advice of Buddha's they do not take... buddhism is not a group religion- it is an individual philosophy... or at least, thats my take on it...

most buddhist teachers from the old school, such as Candrakirti, say that a teacher is not neccessary to learn about buddhism... in fact, a teacher can be a hindrance, rather than a help...

of course, if you are a moron and need somebody else to tell you what to do and think, then yes, find a teacher, bow and scrape and pay them lipservice, but you will not learn much about buddhism this way... all you will do is learn a few neat phrases you can parrot back, and you will learn all about serving assholes who generally, arent fit to wipe your backside...

I have lost count of the number of so-called teachers I have met who lack even a rudimentary knowledge of the dharma... why are they teachers?

because they are ego-trippers... they want ppl to bury their noses in their little brown rings because it makes them feel special... they like to see rows of eager faces looking up at them for guidance- most of them stink...

you want to learn about buddhism? read the texts, practise samatha meditation... that's all you need to do...

as for... some people not being intelligent enough to study buddhism for themselves and need a teacher- absolute rubbish... this is a line often trotted out by dodgy buddhists who want you to join their gang...

all you need to practise buddhism is a mind and a body and average intelligence... most people have this already....

gurus need pupils, it is not pupils who need gurus...

i respect what you have said, and i can completely agree with it in many aspects. however, i know that when studying some aspects of buddhism, such as tantra or things like that, that it is pretty important to have a teacher. i practice a little bit of tantra and i know that without my teacher helping me with my insights that i would probably be going down the wrong path. she has helped me many times by pointing me in the right direction. she doesnt give me the answer, simply suggests a certian meditation or another way of looking at things. i think that is what a teacher is all about. not someone to tell you what to do or how to think, but someone to point you in the right direction when you get lost.

be well in peace

[DrumR]

Originally Posted by Alex P

I wished to ask a question.... As I am not sure if I understand or not, but it seems if I understand, then, buddhist misunderstand, if you know what I mean....

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth; look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself." So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

From my earlier studies of Zen one may find this pithy saying:

If your bladder is full what help is it if I pee?

which, I believe, addresses the whole of the matter concerning "personal enlightenment;" much like the Tao, it is first and foremost individual, personal, and intimate. Read the warning label on the box and - accept no substitutes.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

sorry Alex!

i clicked the wrong button on your reply to me! i ended up replying by editing your post

Chuckle

[wil]

Always interesting this concept. So in theory could one be Buddhist having never met a Buddhist, having never read the sutras, without the path or noble truths?

A friend became a monk, Tibetan tradition, the fellow that came to ordain(?) him said the same thing. Paraphrased, "Don't listen to what I say or anyone else says, Don't follow what the Buddha says, study life and find what you are led to."

I didn't get that right, but I did find it exceedingly refreshing. The whole ceremony was quite nice as well.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by wil

Always interesting this concept. So in theory could one be Buddhist having never met a Buddhist, having never read the sutras, without the path or noble truths?

Hi Wil,

Arguably one could also become a Buddhist without going through a ceremony.

Someone said that a Buddhist would never identify him/herself as a Buddhist. From that standpoint, going through a ritual to ostensibly become a "Buddhist" actually makes very little sense.

Maybe the ceremony is more like an affirmation of a community affiliation. I would downplay the importance of ritual given that Buddhism is to a large degree Hinduism without all the ritual. I think there was a reason why the Buddha wanted to get rid of that stuff.