Buddhism violence and pacifism

No essential nature · 10-03-2006, 06:44 PM

Is Buddhism essentially pacifist? When if ever is violence acceptable?

Snoopy · 10-03-2006, 07:18 PM

Buddhism promotes compassion. Karma tells us that unskilful actions will have unskilful consequences. But then the samurai would train to kill with the purity of zen no-mind.

toujour_333 · 10-04-2006, 03:54 AM

namaste,

well, to my limited knowledge of the dharma, it is not ok to kill anything that pulsates with the breathe of life, however, i think that it is ok to defend oneself, but to do so with minimal harm to the other person. however, myself personally, i would rather die than build up that bad karma, not to mention that the person that would be trying to harm you is a part of you, and therefore, by killing or harming said person, you are also harming or killing yourself as well. therefore, i dont see a purpose in killing whatsoever, therefore i would be a pacifist, if thats what you would call it, but i prefer the term buddha-to-be.

be well in peace

Snoopy · 10-04-2006, 10:53 AM

This is a reason why I am a vegetarian. However, I am also aware that to live is to kill (as per the koan).

Snoopy.

No essential nature · 10-04-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toujour_333

well, to my limited knowledge of the dharma, it is not ok to kill anything that pulsates with the breathe of life, however, i think that it is ok to defend oneself, but to do so with minimal harm to the other person. however, myself personally, i would rather die than build up that bad karma, not to mention that the person that would be trying to harm you is a part of you, and therefore, by killing or harming said person, you are also harming or killing yourself as well. therefore, i dont see a purpose in killing whatsoever, therefore i would be a pacifist, if thats what you would call it, but i prefer the term buddha-to-be.

However, disregarding killing, might not violence under some circumstances improve the other person?

It is said the Shaolin used only non-bladed weapons such as staff and rope as weapons, yet they still defended their temple to further their teaching.

I remember also, a story about a Zen master who would sneak up behind his students and try to hit them with his staff, to check whether they were paying attention or not. One time, a student had an inherited illness or for another reason died when he was hit. Yet the teacher was able to use the fearsome reputation he aquired from this to ensure more than 10 enlightened successors. Did the killing create bad karma?

Like theft; surely to an enlightened person ownership means nothing, so how can they steal, whatever they do in anothers eyes?

toujour_333 · 10-04-2006, 10:55 PM

namaste,

i do believe that it is ok to protect oneself and to defend the dharma, however, i personally would not take life. that is my personal thought on the matter. i have studied about the shaolin monks and their forms of martial arts and i find it quite interesting. however, in reference to your story about the Zen master, it is also said that someone who is truely enlightened is able to see and talk to someone in their degree of enlightenment, so i do believe that, if said Zen master was truely enlightened, then he probably would not have done something that would create negative karma. however, in our eyes, or the eyes of those still yet unenlightened, it may seem as if their actions would produce negative karma. but, thats my take on it.

be well in peace

Snoopy · 10-05-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No essential nature

I remember also, a story about a Zen master who would sneak up behind his students and try to hit them with his staff, to check whether they were paying attention or not. One time, a student had an inherited illness or for another reason died when he was hit. Yet the teacher was able to use the fearsome reputation he aquired from this to ensure more than 10 enlightened successors. Did the killing create bad karma?

I think this is from Zen Flesh Zen Bones, is it not? I keep a copy at work to keep chipping away at. All I can say is, I'm glad I wasn't that student. (Or maybe the story was just a fiction to make a point.....which currently eludes me!)

Snoopy.

No essential nature · 10-07-2006, 06:12 PM

[quote=Snoopy]I think this is from Zen Flesh Zen Bones, is it not? I keep a copy at work to keep chipping away at. All I can say is, I'm glad I wasn't that student. (Or maybe the story was just a fiction to make a point.....which currently eludes me!)
[quote]

Maybe you were? Everybody dies, not everybody truly lives.. !

I don't think the point was in anyway hidden, but perhaps you should understand the cultural context, and what kind of people became monks. It wasn't so much a religious calling generally as somewhere to send spare sons, who as such would often not be too keen to be there and quite young and unruly.

Zen Flesh Zen Bones is simply a compilation of many older texts, though it is indeed where I read it most recently. Quite a quick read I thought, I surprised you didn't just zip through it..?

Snoopy · 10-07-2006, 07:52 PM

Yes, it is very compact and bijou as they say; or at least the one I've got is, a tiny pocket version. Just nice to dip into every now and then.