Buddism and the Baha'i Faith

[lehket]

Vajradhara,

I can't claim extensive knowledge of the subject, so about all I can offer is how I would, based on what I know, understand the matter.

I don't know what is in the texts that make you think that the texts themselves must someday be lost, but I find it very interesting that there is a parallel in that belief to an Islamic belief that the texts that form the Bible (particularly the Gospels and the Jewish texts) have been "lost" in the sense that they have been physically corrupted by people desiring to alter them to suit their preferences. Baha'u'llah, addressing this belief, said that it was in error and that by the phrase "alteration of the Texts" (which appears, as I recall, in the Qur'an) is meant the misinterpretation of the texts so that their meanings are altered, and not the literal changing of the words that comprise the Texts.

Where time frames are concerned, there is a similar situation in Christianity. Prior to the 1800's, although Christians often felt that the "end times" were almost upon them, no efforts had been made to calculate from the Biblical texts when such might happen. In the early 1800's, however, efforts were made to do such calculations, and the results indicated that 1844 was the critical year. When 1844 came and went without Christ descending from the clouds, however, the calculations were revised and, eventually, entirely different interpretations were put forward that again de-emphasized time calculations.

But as it happens, the Bab (Baha'u'llah's Herald) proclaimed His mission on May 23, 1844. One might view this as a strange coincidence, since in the Islamic world the Biblical calculations were probably were not even known. On the other hand, they had their own time calculations. Based on Islamic prophecies, the critical year for the arrival of the "end times" was 1260 A.H. in the Islamic calendar. As it happens, 1260 A.H. coincided with A.D. 1844. And also curiously, this is approximately 2500 years after the Buddha. All these things seem to converge, and just by coincidence (if indeed it is coincidence) that is when the Bab arose and proclaimed the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Of course, a lot of people just shrug it off because it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what's going to happen. But for my money, it's a very curious set of circumstances that at the least deserves consideration. So I considered it and eventually decided it was for real. Your mileage may vary.

Incidentally, your discussion of "expedient means" is very similar to how Baha'is think about such teachings. Baha'u'llah taught that every Manifestation of God delivered His teachings in accordance with the needs and requirements of the times, taking into account what the people were able to understand and absorb. Religious truth is therefore relative to the age in which it is revealed. Moreover, different people have different capacities and are at different points on their spiritual journey, so they may get different things out of any given passage from Scripture. It is not that Truth itself varies, but our ability to comprehend it and respond to it varies. So there is a strong similarity between the Baha'i and the Buddhist approach. (Of course, this is also at least implied in other religions. Jesus, for example, told His followers, "I have other things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.")

I may not get over here much, but I'll try to drop in from time to time. With any luck the other Baha'is here will be able to carry the discussion in my absence.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste lehket,

thank you for the post.

well... not to put too fine a point on it... what makes me think that is the words of the Sutra itself, no other reason

[Susma Rio Sep]

Budhism and Baha'i are two religions which offer us the example of how people being the same everywhere can adopt with enthusiasm religious beliefs and observances which apparently are so opposite.

But when you keep Buddhists in a huge glass cage where you can't hear them but can see them, and also Baha'ists in another similar cage side by side with that of the Buddhists, then you will realize that they are into the same thing.

Knowledge and mastery of religion is like keeping afloat in water. Once you acquired the skill, then you know what the different kinds of swimming are all about: keeping afloat and getting somewhere in the water.

Susma Rio Sep

[IMSassafras]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

further... it is very important to have a proper translation. i've yet to be able to find a source for the translations that are being used for the Suttas... which could also contribute to our misunderstandings.

Vajradhara,

Question: How many translations are there and which ones are the most accurate? Do you recommend a certain translation?


I did a few searches in the Ocean program, and when I searched the word "sutras" under the Baha'i category I came up with only one reference. It goes as follows:

One of the Bahá'í scholars in the Middle East, whose father had formerly superintended a Buddhist Temple, and who was himself well-versed in the writings of that Faith,told me that many times he had read the entire Gospel of Buddha in Sanskrit, every word of which he had understood with the exception of the meaning of a word composed of "b", "h" and "a", which occasionally appears in Buddhist Scripture. When he learned of the Bahá'í Faith, the mystery was solved. The letters, joined together, formed the name of "Baha".
The references by Buddha, are exceptionally clear. Ananda, one of His disciples, asked Him: "Who shall teach us when Thou art gone?" Buddha replied in these clear terms: "I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise .... He shall reveal to you the same eternal truths which I have taught you. He will preach to you His religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal, in the spirit and in the letter."[1]
[1 Sermon of the Great Passing.] 5
It is most interesting to note that in Buddhist Scripture, particularly in the Amitayus Sutra, clear reference is made to "AMITABHA" as the "Infinite Light of Revelation", the "Unbounded Light" and the "Source of Wisdom, of Virtue and of Buddha hood." When giving the qualities of a "true follower" Buddha stated that it was he who "relies with his heart upon Amitabha .... the unbounded Light of Truth."[1]
[1 Shirin Khanum, 'Lord Buddha and Amitabha', pp 13, 17-19.]
(Abu'l-Qasim Faizi, An Explanation of the Greatest Name, p. 4)

I really am not able to expound on this information. I just thought it to be interesting and useful for future reference or discussions with, maybe, others which might be more knowledgeable in this area.

Although, if you would like to expound on this quote, please do so. I would be very interested in any more information you can offer.

warmly,
Sassafras

[Vajradhara]

Namaste sassafrass,


there are many translations from a few different sources. so.. the question is really, which source is the translator working from and who is the translator?

as i'm sure you are aware, English is a rather limited language for expressing some forms of speech which are found in Farsi, Sanskrit, any of the Tibetan-Sino languages et al.

i'm not trying to be a prig or anything like that... however, i believe that it's rather important to know who it doing the translating and from what source.

honestly... i think that the crux of our disagreements on these issues is due to the canon from which the Baha'i have extracted the Buddhist teachings. these are Pali canon Suttas, which generally correspond with the Hinyana tenet system.

you know... i wonder if i should mention this here... all the Buddhas of the Three Times are one and the same... moreover, they are we and we are they and in this, there is no "we" or "they".

sometimes, it seems like Buddhas are presented as something different than us, something outside or beyond.. somehow something we have to strive for or achieve. Buddhanature is inherent in all beings. we do not have to strive for, reach, work or attain to it. it is ours already, we simply do not recognize it. of course, this reflects my Mahayana view and may not be agreed upon by practiconers of the Two Vehicles.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i think that the crux of our disagreements on these issues is due to the canon from which the Baha'i have extracted the Buddhist teachings. these are Pali canon Suttas, which generally correspond with the Hinyana tenet system.

you know... i wonder if i should mention this here... all the Buddhas of the Three Times are one and the same... moreover, they are we and we are they and in this, there is no "we" or "they".

sometimes, it seems like Buddhas are presented as something different than us, something outside or beyond.. somehow something we have to strive for or achieve. Buddhanature is inherent in all beings. we do not have to strive for, reach, work or attain to it. it is ours already, we simply do not recognize it. of course, this reflects my Mahayana view and may not be agreed upon by practiconers of the Two Vehicles.

Having discussed some of these points before with you Vajra I think it would good to maybe make a few statements here that may help clarify things for you....

I don't think Baha'is are saying the Pali canon or Hinyana School is any more acceptable than the Mahayana school or the Buddhist canon of scriptures say in China, Tibet etc.

There are probably two main Baha'i scholars taht have written in this field as you may have gathered already... they are Moojan Momen who has used the Pali Buddhist writings and Jamshed Fozdar who in my view used Chinese texts and others as well....

We Baha'is are not in my view going to say that one Buddhist scripture is superior to another.... Buddhist scriptures and canons are a vast array... How they developed over time and were used is a study in itself.


For Baha'is, the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Bab have primary authority and Abdul-Baha Who was Baha'u'llah's son was the Authorized Interpreter of His Father's Writings. We have many of the Writings translated in English but there are many untranslated. It was Abdul-Baha and Hs grandson Shoghi Effendi that explained that the Baha'u'llah was the Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha the expected Buddha to come...now this explanation is not an extensive one but a statement nonetheless, so Fozdar and Momen have offered up their studies.

Having studied much of the Hinayana School before I was a Baha'i, for me Baha'u'llah is a "Buddha". But our word for this "Buddha" concept is not what it is known as in Buddhism, it is called "Manifestation of God" and I realize for you that term "God" is a problem for you, but we could I think slightly rephrase it as a "Manifestation of an Unknowable Essence". I think a study of this concept will explain much.

So in our view "we are not they" .... A Manifestation is a unique entity from "conception" that is physically like us as humans, however the soul or "heart" perfectly reflects the Unknowable Essence from the beginning. The rest of us are not born with this perfection... We hopefully and potentially can find it, but it is not automatcially with us as it is with the Manifestation(s).

The Buddhist legends of the Buddha Sakyamuni being a perfect being from the beginning I think are perfectly understandable from the Baha'i view. His mother Maya has a dream of the White Elephant entering her side and the birth is painless... The new born Buddha takes steps and speaks. He does not need to be taught in a school but instructs teh instructor, and so on. This to us is a beautiful allegory of how a Manifestation comes into the world.

We Baha'is believe these same signs as portrayed in Buddhist legend this occurred identically with the Christ and later the Bab.

Peace,

- Art

[9Harmony]

I learned something new today.

Buddha said when making reference to how we would know the fifth Buddha...
"he will be know as Maitreya, which means He Whose name is "kindness"."

Baha'u'llah's given name, Husayn, is Arabic for "kindness".

How cool is that?

Just thought I'd share.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

[Vajradhara]

Namatse Art,


thank you for the response.

oh, i'm not suggesting that the Baha'i are explicitly saying that the Hinyana tenet system is correct, however that is the implication inherent in your view that this is the Dharma ending age, and that this means that the Dharma is "misunderstood" by us.

obviously, this is a valid view point, one which i just don't happen to agree with which is just fine, from my vantage point.

Shakyamuni was a Bodhisattva in his previous lives which is why he arose in this historical epoch, not so much that he realized anything in this life. in point of fact, when he talks about his meeting with Dipankara, he says that he realized No Dharma whatsoever.

at any rate... it's a complex subject to be sure

[arthra]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

I learned something new today.

Buddha said when making reference to how we would know the fifth Buddha...
"he will be know as Maitreya, which means He Whose name is "kindness"."

Baha'u'llah's given name, Husayn, is Arabic for "kindness".

How cool is that?

Just thought I'd share.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

I hadn't thought of that! Thanks Harmony.... I apprecaite all you've been doing on that other forum as well! Nice going...

Some where i had a translation of a Sutra about Maitreya that has a commenatry connecting Maitrya with Saoshyans the Zoroastrian Saviour that was also expected.... seems the translator believed there could be a possible blend or connection between Buddhism and Zoroastrianism in the area... If I can i'll locate it and share it here!

- Art

[Ocean_Drop]

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

This doesn't take anything away from the proof though. Consider how the Jews awaited a Messiah whos name was Immanuel (translation: God with us). Although Christ's name wasn't this, He fulfilled this in that He was indeed "God with us". Likewise, there can be no doubt that Baha'u'llah was the epitome of kindness - i.e. Maitreya.

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Ocean_Drop

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

Darn! Sorry.

What about the Arabic translation?

[Ocean_Drop]

Nope... noe the Arabic translations. It's nothing to deter us though... consider the parallel with Immanuel/Christ!

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This hasn't deterred some 2 billion Christians from accepting Christ! Likewise,

"He will be known as Maitreya" = "He will be known as kindness". There is no doubt that Baha'u'llah was renowned for His kindness.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste ocean drop,

thank you for the reply.

Originally Posted by Ocean_Drop

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

This doesn't take anything away from the proof though. Consider how the Jews awaited a Messiah whos name was Immanuel (translation: God with us). Although Christ's name wasn't this, He fulfilled this in that He was indeed "God with us". Likewise, there can be no doubt that Baha'u'llah was the epitome of kindness - i.e. Maitreya.

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

all Buddhas of the Three Times teach the same thing. i'll admit that my knowledge of your scriptures is slight at best.

can you explain the Baha'i teaching on the non-existence of a soul to me?

[arthra]

In a little while I'll post information from a book "Anagatavamsa Desana: The Sermon of the Chronicle to Be" Translated by Udaya Meddagama and with into and notes by John Clifford Holt. First edition published in 1993.

This was the book I was looking for earlier... It has more information about the Maitreya...actually it's suspected the name has it's roots in Mitra or friend and Mitra was also associated with the Sun and hence with light.

Anyway I'll post more later. I found some interesting associations i think.

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

just for the sake of discussion..

you do realize that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was Maitreya, don't you?

you do also realize that L. Ron Hubbard was Maitreya as well?

there are many beings that have proclaimed themselves as Maitreya, however, this cannot be so. i realize that this is a difficult thing to hear and perhaps i have no business bringing this to the fore in our ongoing discussion, i have no intention of offering offense.

i am of the impression that, despite any argument that i may make, this issue has already been decided for the Baha'i posters in this thread. i'm not entirely certain of the reason that Baha'u'llah has to be Maitreya... i honestly don't know why.

it seems to me that the Baha'i have a strong enough faith as it is based upon their own scriptures and teachings no real need for anything else....