Burned at the stake for the Bible

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The church hasn't erred, individuals have.

If the church is driven by the will of individuals then as they err then so does the church. If the individuals represent the church, then as they err, so does the church.

If the church is not represented by individuals or will, then I presume we are talking about something abstract and immaterial? In which case, we are neither talking about the RCC nor any other denomination?

[Thomas]

Hi Juantoo —

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Dearest Thomas, this is simply not the case.

My dear friend, there are two sides to every coin!

"The translators of the 1881 ERV NT were frank about the KJV’s use of the Rheims NT. They said in their “Preface” to the New Testament that the text of the KJV “shows evident traces of the influence of a Version not specified in the rules, the Rhemish, made from the Latin Vulgate, but by scholars conversant with the Greek original.” (p. VI). And indeed this influence is pervasive. Dr. J. G. Carleton in his work The Part of Rheims in the Making of the English Bible (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1902. 259 pp.) has shown that the KJV has taken some 2,803 readings, besides 140 marginal readings--nearly 3,000 in all--from the Roman Catholic (Rheims) translation of 1582 After a brief but helpful survey of English Bible versions before 1611, Carleton explains his methodology, and then presents his findings in extended lists, meticulously prepared, showing precisely where and how the KJV was influenced in its vocabulary, phraseology and grammar by the Roman Catholic Rheims NT, an influence that literally affects every page of the KJV NT."
Quoted from a Catholic site, but I will check further if you want.

There's a load of other interesting stuff there, too.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If the church is driven by the will of individuals...

We see it as the Church is something that Christ willed and founded, therefore it is Perfect and Indefectible, and something that man aspires to. The Church endures, She is an ark, we are both the people carried in Her, and the storms that rage about Her ... any fault is ours, not hers.

I would say the Church marks the degree to which human will falls short of what it would and could be. The Church is driven by the Will of Christ, no other ... we didn't decide what She is, He did ... we do not will it, but aspire to it ... usually, badly, but sometimes, gloriously.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

then as they err then so does the church. If the individuals represent the church, then as they err, so does the church.

No. Not if the error is willed by the individual, and not by the Church. A bent copper does not render the law invalid. It might make its admin procedure subject to review, but the principle of the law remains inviolate.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If the church is not represented by individuals or will, then I presume we are talking about something abstract and immaterial? In which case, we are neither talking about the RCC nor any other denomination?

No, only if Jesus Himself is abstract and immaterial ... as many assume Him to be ... but we believe He walked and talked, and we have the testimony of those He called.

Christ is His Church ... without Christ, there is no Church, and without the Church, there is no Christ ...

I would argue that the Catholic Church alone is the one who has placed no human, rational, determination or limitation on what is possible for Her founder, according to the Word of Scripture. I would further argue that every other church, whilst child of the one Mother Church, is defective to the degree of human discrimination that altered or revoked the original doctrine.

Now we are not perfect, none of us, so there will always be sin in her members, but in Herself, She is eternally perfected, so that for the seeker, there is no limitation to the spirit of sonship promised of Her founder, rather there are the sacraments that realise, as best we can in this world, the beatitude promised of the next.

The contra argument will always seek to rationalise what the Church is, to reduce it to a philosophical or ethical institution ... and the Catholic will always shake his head ... She is a Mystery.

Thomas

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If the church is driven by the will of individuals then as they err then so does the church. If the individuals represent the church, then as they err, so does the church.

If the church is not represented by individuals or will, then I presume we are talking about something abstract and immaterial? In which case, we are neither talking about the RCC nor any other denomination?

If the Pope, or the cardinals or arch bishops decree things counter to the will of the collective whole of the church, then it is the individuals that err, not the church. The church is "we the people", not he, the pope. Unfortunately the world identifies the RCC with the clergy, who are individuals capable of error, and who's errors can have rippling repercussions across the entirety of the church, as seen by the rest of the world...

That is what I meant to express.

v/r

Q

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If the Pope, or the cardinals or arch bishops decree things counter to the will of the collective whole of the church, then it is the individuals that err, not the church. The church is "we the people", not he, the pope. Unfortunately the world identifies the RCC with the clergy, who are individuals capable of error, and who's errors can have rippling repercussions across the entirety of the church, as seen by the rest of the world...

If the collective whole of the church voted I'd bet a number of things would change. Contraception, divorce rules, abortion rights, married priests, would be quite interesting...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

If the collective whole of the church voted I'd bet a number of things would change. Contraception, divorce rules, abortion rights, married priests, would be quite interesting...

I seriously doubt it Wil. But then, that's a Catholic thing...