Burned at the stake for the Bible

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

I recently watched a particularly disturbing program on America's public TV network (PBS). It was the story of how people were put to death in Europe in the 1600's for both translating the Bible into English, and for reading the English-language Bible.

SECRETS OF THE DEAD . Battle for the Bible | PBS

Has anybody else seen this horrifying program, or heard of these events?

I was especially amazed by how the Catholic and Episcopal churches forbid the Bible to be written in English, and forbid its members to read the Bible all by themselves. It seems so opposite of what happens today. I guess that's just how things were in Europe in the 1600's — you were burned at the stake for simply having an English Bible?

Truly shocking.

[Dream]

It is true, however the reformation actually started much earlier than 1600. I think it was around 1200, and I'm sure there are many more details. Politics had something to do with it. Many of the protesting churches followed suit with persecutions of their own, and many of those original protestant churches protest much less. I wouldn't consider the big churches to be powerless or entirely assassinless, but I don't really know. Everyone has changed a little since then. Everyone also wonders why ecumenical councils didn't work, why the little churches often break into yet littler churches, and why those seem to break into even littler ones.

I rarely bring it up in forums, because it isn't conducive to conversation. It can be sort of like reminding your parents of all their mistakes or your friends of their annoyances and then expecting to casually lecture them on Huckleberry Finn at the same sitting. (not that I object to discussing it here in this thread. I don't. Somebody brings it up sooner or later.)

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

I recently watched a particularly disturbing program on America's public TV network (PBS). It was the story of how people were put to death in Europe in the 1600's for both translating the Bible into English, and for reading the English-language Bible.

SECRETS OF THE DEAD . Battle for the Bible | PBS

Has anybody else seen this horrifying program, or heard of these events?

I was especially amazed by how the Catholic and Episcopal churches forbid the Bible to be written in English, and forbid its members to read the Bible all by themselves. It seems so opposite of what happens today. I guess that's just how things were in Europe in the 1600's — you were burned at the stake for simply having an English Bible?

Truly shocking.

Hi there Nick (I like your name.)

I read this as just normal for secular devolution. At one time sacred text was passed along as an oral tradition. It was known that knowledge by itself, without having developed a more human perspective, must become perverted. As the student became ready, knowledge was given to him. Of course this appeared insulting to those without this human capacity for understanding so written documents pertaining to whatever sacred text gradually appeared from the loss of understanding..

Naturally then, interpretations normal for the fallen human perspective we call "understanding," began to be passed along by these confused people called "experts" from their own written interpretations. It is no wonder then that the insults became so intolerable that people were compelled to kill one another. This just seems normal for the process of the sacred devolving into the secular.

[Nick the Pilot]

Nick, Dream, et all,

I agree. But people were forbidden to read a Bible written in their vernacular? People were forbidden to possess a Bible written in their vernacular?

This is too bizarre.

Nick,

Yes, we share a nice name. My birthday is in December, and I was named after Santa. (No kidding.)

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Has anybody else seen this horrifying program, or heard of these events?

Well the history is there ... but from reading the programme notes, I think this one's high on the sensationalist element and a bit light on a proper grasp or presentation of the facts. We get this sort of thing this side of the pond, it's cheap TV journalism, in the words of the media mogul, "never let the truth stand in the way of a good story".

And of course, in this age of Political Correctness, the Catholic Church is the only social institution one can attack with impunity.

For a proper understanding of the events, there are a few key issues that need to be taken on board; the emergence of nationalism, the need for a reformation in Europe, the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire, and the assault on the traditional structures of authority of the Church.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

you were burned at the stake for simply having an English Bible?

Not quite. The Bible in the vernacular was part of a greater heretical movement.

Tyndale was a great follower of Martin Luther, and was regarded with suspicion by both church and the state, they saw him as looking to bring the reformation to England, a threat to the crown as well as the church, and wanted to avoid the kind of slaughter we now know as The Peasant's Revolt, when the German peasantry took Martin Luther at his word, to their great cost.

St Thomas More, the notable English martyr, was among those who accused Tyndale of intentionally mistranslating the text in order to promote anti-clericalism and heretical views. As so often is the case, he hoped to harness grass-roots support to drive through a political agenda.

Tyndale was burned for heresy, not for translating the Bible.

Key to the Church's power was the fact that its rituals were conducted in Latin, a language inaccessible to the uneducated faithful. The public was completely dependent on the priesthood for access to salvation -- only through mysterious rituals conducted in an unfamiliar tongue could they conduct their spiritual lives.

This is actually not the case at all, and the kind of thing that pop-scholars or ill-informed journalists make when the assume that 'common knowledge' is actual fact. It's a common misconception founded on Reformation propaganda. Serious scholarship provides us with a completely different picture, actually quite the reverse of the above, of a lively and vibrant faith.

When, briefly, Catholicism emerged under Mary Queen of Scots, the churches, denuded by the reformers who allowed no images, no statues, no candles, no decoration ... were very quickly restored to their former glory. It is now a matter of evidence that a vast mass of books, artworks, vestments and all manner of religious materials were in fact kept by the local congregations in the hope of a return to the old and trusted traditions.

In Europe meanwhile, under the impetus of the Reformation, the people were denied access to the rites and symbols which gave their lives meaning. In Calvinist Switzerland a woman was burned to death for putting flowers on her husband's grave. So they looked elsewhere, to folk practice, and the result was a resurgence in the minds of the Reformers of a practice more dangerous than popery ... witchcraft!

Examination of registers clearly show that it was the Reformers who were most zealous in the hunting and burning or witches, such acts in Catholic countries — were a known and meaningful symbolism spoke to the people — were few and far between. Another evidence of a lively and life-affirming faith.

Thomas

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Hi there Nick (I like your name.)

That's the name you would have got if you had signed up earlier.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Yes, we share a nice name. My birthday is in December, and I was named after Santa. (No kidding.)

Are you a saint that I should worship you?

Originally Posted by Dream

why the little churches often break into yet littler churches, and why those seem to break into even littler ones.

Eventually it splits into individuals. Look at me! I am a church unto myself!

Alas, I found that I could not agree with myself. I shall become a heretic.

But I can be happy that I am outside all of your individual jurisdictions. Except my own. How shall I excommunicate myself? Commune with myself?

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas,

You said,

"Tyndale was burned for heresy, not for translating the Bible."

--> Do you think it is OK to burn people to death because they are heretics?

[Nick the Pilot]

Saltmeister,

You asked,

"...that I should worship you?"

--> You may, if you wish.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Thomas

...It's a common misconception founded on Reformation propaganda. Serious scholarship provides us with a completely different picture, actually quite the reverse of the above, of a lively and vibrant faith.

If I leave out rumors of burnings, uprisings, and hot-headed politicians -- what, in your opinion, caused so many people want to leave the Roman tradition? What has changed to improve that?

I went through Protestant Christian schools for the majority of my elementary education, which gave a view of the Reformation not unlike that of those journalists. I also was assigned to read a short biography on Tyndale, John Bunyan, and several others Protesters/Reformers and had to write something about them. I got a grim picture of the Roman Catholic Church from it, too. I think here in the States there's still some anti-Catholic sentiment, and other than doctrinal disagreements it is mostly because of the things we're talking about right now.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But I can be happy that I am outside all of your individual jurisdictions. Except my own. How shall I excommunicate myself? Commune with myself?

Tell jokes to yourself? Laugh at your self's jokes?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

I recently watched a particularly disturbing program on America's public TV network (PBS). It was the story of how people were put to death in Europe in the 1600's for both translating the Bible into English, and for reading the English-language Bible.

SECRETS OF THE DEAD . Battle for the Bible | PBS

Has anybody else seen this horrifying program, or heard of these events?

I was especially amazed by how the Catholic and Episcopal churches forbid the Bible to be written in English, and forbid its members to read the Bible all by themselves. It seems so opposite of what happens today. I guess that's just how things were in Europe in the 1600's — you were burned at the stake for simply having an English Bible?

Truly shocking.

I missed the show, Nick. I did want to see it but the wife had other plans. I am hoping to catch it next time around.

Have you ever read Foxe's "Book of Martyrs" ? It tells of a number of various "burning at the stake" and other executions that took place, particularly in England during the various battles waged between Catholics and the Anglican church. I understood this period of time to be the 16th century however, which would be the 1500's. The JKV was originally published in 1611, and the Anglican church has pretty well dominated English politics since. The Battle Royale between Mary Queen of Scots and Bloody Mary cost many lives, some of which are highlighted in that book, and that would have occured in the mid-1500's. During the 1600's the focus of the Anglican church shifted...and it was Puritans who were put to the torch.

Interestingly, it was Puritans who fled those torchings who settled in America (Plymouth Rock and Massachussetts Bay Colony) who later sponsored the witch trials in Salem.

What goes around comes around sometimes it seems.

Perhaps some of our English friends know more and would be willing to share. I haven't read Thomas' posts yet, no doubt illuminating.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Commune with myself?

Salty, some of my most intelligent conversations are with myself. The flip side is a lot of people think I'm nuts...

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm a schizophrenic
And so am I

[Nick the Pilot]

juantoo3,

I hope you get to see the program the next time it comes around. I did learn one thing from the show -- Queen Mary is called Bloody Mary because of all the people she had burned at the stake!

You said,

"Interestingly, it was Puritans who fled those torchings who settled in America (Plymouth Rock and Massachussetts Bay Colony) who later sponsored the witch trials in Salem."

I had not thought of that. It is a chilling irony.

"I haven't read Thomas' posts yet, no doubt illuminating."

--> I am waiting for Thomas' response with high enthusiasm.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

I recently watched a particularly disturbing program on America's public TV network (PBS). It was the story of how people were put to death in Europe in the 1600's for both translating the Bible into English, and for reading the English-language Bible.

SECRETS OF THE DEAD . Battle for the Bible | PBS

Has anybody else seen this horrifying program, or heard of these events?

I was especially amazed by how the Catholic and Episcopal churches forbid the Bible to be written in English, and forbid its members to read the Bible all by themselves. It seems so opposite of what happens today. I guess that's just how things were in Europe in the 1600's — you were burned at the stake for simply having an English Bible?

Truly shocking.

yes , and it was always the so called religious leaders who were at the forefront of it all.

and to think that the bible is the inspired word of God to us all , makes me think who really are those religious leaders working for, GOD? or the one in opposition to God (satan)
it seems to me that those religious leaders are more interested in their traditions of men than they are in knowing what the bible really teaches


nothing changes does it



its like they are saying , lets shut up the truth of the bible we might lose our power.

[mee]

so bringing it up to modern day translation, what translation have the religious leaders of christendom had great opposition too .


even telling their flocks to not read it , and even having the people who promote bible truth thrown in prison on false charges.




HERE IT IS
Read the Bible Online

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

[mee]

There is no greater treasure to be found.
Bible truth liberates us from superstition, confusion, and morbid fear. It gives us hope, purpose, and joy. Jesus said: ”You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—jOHN;32