Cain's wife...thoughts?

JonMarc · 06-05-2005, 03:33 PM

man, i just can't seem to get away from genesis the past couple of days. i started reading through the old posts to make sure this wasn't brought up already, but i kept seeing too many old ones i wanted to read and reply to and i was already up until 5 this morning referencing the things that i posted about yesterday, so i decided to just post it. my apologies if it's been covered already. i don't have my bible on me right now so i'm going to do it like this. it's all in the very beginning of genesis for those of you that don't know and would only take five minutes to read if you're curious about the scriptural accuracy of this post... thanks for bearing with me all!! and please point out any inaccuracies, discrepancies, bad grammar, mispelled words, or just plain wasted space...

In genesis the timeline goes something like this... (i'm adding in things prior to cain's birth because i feel they bring up some interesting points)
adam created. animals created and placed before adam. adam names animals by kind. a companion for adam is created. adam calls this creation woman, because she came of man. original sin. adam questioned by God. adam blames 'the woman whom you gave to be with me'. woman blames serpent. serpent is cursed. woman is cursed. man is cursed. adam calls out his wife's name (first reference to woman as adam's wife), eve as she is the mother to all the world.

**note that prior to this point he did not name her as an individual. it is not until after the curse of childbearing that she is referred to as his wife and named the mother of all life on earth. this relates to my other post, as well as to lunamoth's theory that marriage is a union for the purpose of providing stability for a family, instead of the actual act of sex being purely for family.**

moving right along...

adam and eve cast out of paradise. cain is born. able is born. cain slays able. cain is cast away from god, but marked so that he should not be slain lest he be avenged seven fold. cain takes a wife, and knows her, creating enoch. a city is built and named after enoch. so on down cain's line to lamech, then begins the geneology of adam and the story of noah.

now.... where did cain's wife come from? cain was created, then able, then the murder, then the banishment, when did another woman come into play here?

i already have my thoughts on the matter, but would like to hear the thoughts of others....

again, sorry if this has already been brought up, and i'm pretty sure it has because it gets brought up to me all of the time...
if you read this whole post only to get to the question and feel cheated because you've already replied to it elsewhere, i'll send you a postcard for your troubles...

arthra · 06-05-2005, 04:29 PM

JonMarc wrote:

"adam and eve cast out of paradise. cain is born. able is born. cain slays able. cain is cast away from god, but marked so that he should not be slain lest he be avenged seven fold. cain takes a wife, and knows her, creating enoch. a city is built and named after enoch. so on down cain's line to lamech, then begins the geneology of adam and the story of noah.

now.... where did cain's wife come from? cain was created, then able, then the murder, then the banishment, when did another woman come into play here?

i already have my thoughts on the matter, but would like to hear the thoughts of others...."

My own thoughts on the matter are that of course Cain's wife was from another community of people around the land of Nod. If you read the creation story literally and accept it as word for word as literal and without contradiction...there are problems.

I think the Bible is remarkable because it contains some of these interesting issues that people have asked about over the centuries and will continue to...

But my own faith teaches there were people before Adam so there is no problem with Cain's wife for me.

We see Adam as the initiator of a prohetic cycle.

- Art

mynameisstephen · 06-05-2005, 04:47 PM

Many ask this question thinking they’ve found a "mistake" in the Bible—that there must have been other people besides Adam and Eve. Scripture tells us that Adam is "the first man" (1 Corinthians 15:45); that there were no other humans when he was created, because God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone" (Genesis 2:18); and that Eve is "the mother of all living" (Genesis 3:20). Cain and Abel, then, must have married distant sisters. All of the first-generation siblings married each other in order to populate the earth. At that time there was no law against incest. But as the population grew large enough, and as the risk of genetic problems increased because of sin’s curse, God outlawed marriage between siblings.

Bandit · 06-05-2005, 05:09 PM

i will put some of mine up here in a nut shell.

I know there was something else here before Adam, yet I still do not see a contradiction in the bible on this. Even if Cain did take a wife from a previous group of people before Adam, the scripture tells us everything & everyone was destroyed in the flood. While Cain recieved a mark, he also recieved aid, that no one would slay him.
It is possible that the seed of Cain made it on to the ark with one of the 8, in the 3 daughters (wives).

We still have, we are all of one blood, Adam was the first man & Eve is the mother of all living. I also see the possibility that Cain did take on one from the seed of Adam for a wife, considering how fast humans can multiply & incest was pretty common. This is what they were supposed to do, Multiply.

After Adam was made & set out of the garden, we also have, (thorns & thistles) AND for there was not a man to til the land. I would think there would be people tilling the land somewhere. But here we see there was not.

So, some are seeing 2 different creations of man. I see that possibility, yet I do not feel that it directly relates to the ages that we know for sure from that side of the flood & I am not real concerned with with trying to incorporate the bible with what went on here prior to Adam because there is too much speculation. Yet we know there was something(s).

It is also possible that what we know of before Adam, may not have still been there when Adam was made, as far as another race, because as far as I can see, there is still a gap. I dont think anyone can say for sure on this.

Because of the flood, it does not really matter where Cains wife came from, from what I can see.
I do not believe anything in the bible is a myth, but if others want to, they are entitled to that.
There is a lot more to it that I believe in, leading man (men & women) from Adam to Jesus, to the present, but I will stop with that.

path_of_one · 06-05-2005, 07:52 PM

My take on it...

Adam and Eve were the first of the Jewish people. There were already other people in other places. Humans have always been pretty territorial, and Cain was marked (protected by God) so that he wouldn't be killed when he inevitably came in contact with other tribes/cultures. If it were just his brothers and sisters to worry about, no mark would be needed, because by that point there just would not have been that many people if only Adam and Eve were having kids- in natural conditions, women only can support having about one child every 3-4 years. Cain ended up marrying into another culture.

As for agriculture- people lived for a long time without it. They were hunter-gatherers, living off the wild foods of the land, and some of those groups still exist. All biological and cultural evidence points to hunter-gatherers being the first form of economy and society. Agriculture is a pretty recent phenomenon, and domestication of livestock preceded domestication of plants. So it isn't surprising that when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden, there wasn't any agriculture yet. Of course, there is a focus on agriculture in the Genesis creation narrative, because the Jewish people were agricultural and in all agricultural societies this is a huge deal.

All creation narratives in every culture have a story about the beginning of Humanity, and "Humanity" always refers to the particular culture in question. Ancient peoples routinely did not think of the other humans around them as real "people," but rather as folks that were similar but fundamentally different. The first religions were animistic and humans saw all life-forms as different kinds of "people," so seeing those folks over there as different "people" than us, on a nearly species level, is not nearly so incomprehensible as today.
Overall, I think the whole story is symbolic anyway, and has very deep and beautiful messages. All creation narratives are not really about creation. They are statements about humanity's place in the world, relationship to God, etc. Of course, this is a comparative and scholarly view rather than a church doctrinal one. But I've meditated on the Genesis creation account and prayed over it for many years, and I've had some profound experiences and messages arise from the practice. It's such a rich passage...

MannaBoBanna · 06-05-2005, 08:23 PM

There were other people here, as the other posters are saying.
Throw out the leaven of the teachings of the organized religions, and
look with the eyes of your heart.

juantoo3 · 06-05-2005, 10:05 PM

Kindest Regards, JonMark, and welcome to CR!

Quote:

where did cain's wife come from? cain was created, then able, then the murder, then the banishment, when did another woman come into play here?

I have gone over this a number of times, but I'll try to give a brief.
On the 6th day, God created "adam", without the article, male and female. He rested on the 7th day, and He created "ha-adam", with the article, "the man Adam", on the 8th day. Cain took a wife of the sixth day creation.
I am also of the opinion that the flood of Noah was not worldwide, that is, it did not cover the entire planet. The geological record does not support a worldwide flood, Glenn Morton covers this well in his stuff. (Consider Australia alone, it contradicts a worldwide deluge) I am of the opinion that a remnant of the sixth day creation survived the deluge.

I will go a step further, Cain is not included in the geneology of Adam because he was not the son of Adam. The serpent seduced Eve, in everything that entails. Eve carried twins, Cain and Able, but by different daddies. I hear it is medically possible to carry twins of different fathers, but in fairness I haven't looked into it. But that is why Cain is not included in the geneology of Adam, Adam was not Cain's daddy.

The Bible is the story of the family and descendents of "ha-Adam."

Bandit · 06-06-2005, 12:24 AM

Hey Juan

I am just wondering how you interpret this, if Cain is not a descendant of Adam?

1 And Adam 'knew' Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

I am asking because later Cain 'knew' his wife & she bare Enoch, making Enoch, Cains son. KNEW, being the most initmate term between a man & woman.

then I am just wondering in brief about Gen 7 & 9. How do you interpret these verses if some things survived? OR do you have another place where you get the survival record from?

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

Genesis 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Bandit · 06-06-2005, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannaBoBanna

There were other people here, as the other posters are saying.
Throw out the leaven of the teachings of the organized religions, and
look with the eyes of your heart.

well, i am not saying there were other people here, so dont hold me to it as a sure thing. I would go just the opposite with it.

Bandit · 06-06-2005, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonMarc

**note that prior to this point he did not name her as an individual. it is not until after the curse of childbearing that she is referred to as his wife and named the mother of all life on earth. this relates to my other post, as well as to lunamoth's theory that marriage is a union for the purpose of providing stability for a family, instead of the actual act of sex being purely for family.**

what about in 2:25 & 3:8, she was called his wife, prior to the curse. is that what you mean?

or do you just mean her name Eve, after the curse.

JonMarc · 06-06-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

...Kindest Regards, JonMark, and welcome to CR!

I have gone over this a number of times, but I'll try to give a brief.
On the 6th day, God created "adam", without the article, male and female. He rested on the 7th day, and He created "ha-adam", with the article, "the man Adam", on the 8th day...

thank you juan. i do not have time to go into now as i have work in fifteen minutes, but i will just say that you've pretty much hit on my own feelings on the matter with your post. as for the flood thing, that is new to me as i have not looked into it, but am glad you talked about it because it gives me something new to research! thanks...

queenofsheba · 06-06-2005, 10:54 AM

Just read the story symbolically: "Adam" means "man" and "Eve" means "woman". I believe in Darwin's evolution theory and I think that up to Abraham or maybe even Moses, the Bible shouldn't be read literally.

JonMarc · 06-06-2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

what about in 2:25 & 3:8, she was called his wife, prior to the curse. is that what you mean?

or do you just mean her name Eve, after the curse.

no that's true bandit... like i said i wasn't posting with a bible at hand and those were just little notes as i was thinking. the eve part of the question is still interesting to me, and i personally believe it goes along the lines of what juan said, as i believe man's portion in the history of the seven days of creation is actually seperate from the creation of adam and eve. good catch though, i don't mean to put any misleading or non scriptural references down. thanks!

Bandit · 06-06-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queenofsheba

Just read the story symbolically: "Adam" means "man" and "Eve" means "woman". I believe in Darwin's evolution theory and I think that up to Abraham or maybe even Moses, the Bible shouldn't be read literally.

Eve means the FIRST woman & life giver. I think I will stick with a literal Adam & Eve. A literal Abraham. A literal Cain & Abel & a literal flood, a literal Jesus & a literal Bible & take some of what Darwin says as symbolic.

Bandit · 06-06-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonMarc

no that's true bandit... like i said i wasn't posting with a bible at hand and those were just little notes as i was thinking. the eve part of the question is still interesting to me, and i personally believe it goes along the lines of what juan said, as i believe man's portion in the history of the seven days of creation is actually seperate from the creation of adam and eve. good catch though, i don't mean to put any misleading or non scriptural references down. thanks!

that's cool JonMarc. but then the people before Adam would be under the curse of death because of Adams trangression & several other complications in the scripture. I am seeing it as a reiteration of the 6th day & that God has not yet rested, because perfected man is His rest. From what I can see the sixth day is mans day.

But that is ok if you see it different. I wont argue or challenge & I know you don't mean to mislead.

I only ask a couple of questions to better understand where others are going with things, not to hinder them.