Can a Christian kill?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

certainly agree with that



When we say these are questions that should be left up to the individual, not the state, we have to consider that state money is nearly always involved in these procedures, eg President Bush vetoed the use of federal funds to support embryonic stem cell research.

The question I am pondering is whether, as Christians, we should support, and actively encourage, government policy that imposes restrictions on certain behaviour?

The moral dimension also needs to be considered ... eg, should the option of having a cloned child be available to those who want it? I have heard it argued from medical grounds, that a cloned embryo would be more likey to be brought to full term by mothers who are unable to carry a baby conceived through IVF.

Likewise, should euthanasia be a legally condoned option, financed by medical institutions dependent on government resources?

I'm sorry. this isn't a political thread. That would be the Politics and Society forum down the hall and on your left...

v/r

Q

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

Aren't you positive there are observant, tithing, respected in thier community Christians included in that grouping? Do we really think today is different than yesterday?

Saying the word Christian and going through the rituals does not make it so.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm sorry. this isn't a political thread. That would be the Politics and Society forum down the hall and on your left...
v/r
Q

I'm not able to divorce my Christian experience from real life issues.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

I'm not able to divorce my Christian experience from real life issues.

Ok. Since you brought it up. Stem cells. Mr. Bush for example did not, and never has vetoed stem cell research that did not use embryonic stem cells. He is all for adult stem cell research. What Mr. Bush vetoed was the funding for use of stem cell research using stem cells from aborted fetuses. He also never had a problem with embryonic stem cells that come from the umbilical cord discarded after birth. And, he did not make a law to forbid embryonic stem cell research, he simply said the Government won't fund research that draws it's material from aborted babies. And I don't blame him.

As far as encouraging government policy that imposes restrictions on certain behavior...why, yes! Since the government in question is run by the people of the nation, the government is enforcing the will of the nation. So instead of blaming the government, you have to look to the people, and convince them otherwise.

Personally, in a perfect world, I can see no problem with a cloned child (as long as the procedure to create one is "PERFECT". The resultant child would simply be a twin to another human being, but at a different stage of growth. And the soul within the child would still be unique, the personality and character would also be unique...the body would simply contain an identical blueprint to the doner of the cell that was cloned into a human being. (nature clones life all the time). The other issue here however, is what happens if the clone is not perfect, or what happens if the cloning is used for body parts sans regard for the life that was brought into this world? Hey if I can think of such a gruesom thought, chances are others have as well.

Euthanasia, well you bring us right back to the original question. Can a Christian kill? If we walk down that slippery slope as far as who should live because they are considered productive to society (material wise), and who should die because they are taking up too many resources and not providing tangible support to society, then what you are asking for is legalized murder, or assisted suicide, mercy killing. But there will come a time when those to be euthanised, do not wish to be, but the law states that they must...

Again, this is nothing new. It was already done in history. I personally do not want my tax dollars to go to the "art" of inducing death to one who may or may not wish it.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Hey, steady on Q, this is not a political thread you know ... besides, I'm on your side

[Postmaster]

Wow what a thread can't believe I missed it.

Take the example of Agios (Saint) Raphael and Agios (Saint) Nicolas 2 Greek orthodox Priests in the mid 1400s practising on the Island of Lesvos. Before Raphael’s death he wrote stuff, much of it about how to be a good Christian and following the Christian path. Both these priests were granted saint hood because they started to appear in dreams of to all the people in a village in Lesvos in the 1950s. Yes very mystical and unexplainable! People began to talk as the saints including a 12 year old girl Agia Irene would visit them in the dreams explaining of how they died. It became apparent that in the 1400s the Ottomans invaded the Island of Lesvos and on there rampage made it to the church the 2 priests were preaching and the girl Agia Irene was worshiping with her parents. And they asked the 2 priests to give up there priest hood and join the ottoman army. They refused and were taken into separate rooms to be tortured until they gave in, remarkably they didn't and died a horrific death. And at the same time saint Irene was forced to join the Ottomans but refused to and was burnt to death with great difficulty in a giant clay vase in front of her parents. A journalist and sceptic at the time decided to investigate and using peoples dreams he went to the so called location of where this was suppose to have happened and discovered relics including the writings of saint Raphael, bones of tortured people, clay vase with bones in etc. Of which an amazing smell of flowers came from the bones and unexplainably too heavy for him to pick up. He went temporarily blind and went into communication with the saint who told him he had no faith in the dreams and the people, till eventually he did and came around. Since then a church was built in there honour and they are probably the most healing saints in the whole of the Orthodoxy faith, there are many many reported stories of them and people all over the Greek world and healing of illness.

http://www.serfes.org/writtings/straphael.htm

I'd also like to ask what do people think of Joan of Arc the patron saint of France? Who killed the British and was regarded a terrorist?

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'd also like to ask what do people think of Joan of Arc the patron saint of France? Who killed the British and was regarded a terrorist?

My early 15th century history is a bit shaky, but I think Joan was defending France against an unjustified occupation by England. Although I do not recognize the Catholic concept of saints (the church burnt her and then the church canonized her ... go figure) I regard Joan as a prophetess, acting under direction from God. In my opinion, she was the rallying figure for a just war.

BTW, in case anyone is wondering, Leelee Sobieski was the best Joan ever!

[Postmaster]

I'd say she was a prophetess I mean she was prophesied to arrive to save the French, old scriptures wrote of a young virgin girl to save the people of France.. Don't you think it would have been tragic if France was British till today? One of the greatest cultural countries in the world.. Never would have happened under British rule.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by kenod

BTW, in case anyone is wondering, Leelee Sobieski was the best Joan ever!

Actually I prefer Milla Jovovich.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Don't you think it would have been tragic if France was British till today? One of the greatest cultural countries in the world.. Never would have happened under British rule.

I'm pretty sure Joan would not have approved of much of modern French culture ... or British ... or American ... or even Australian!

Our me-centred society would conflict sharply with her God-focused piety, I'm afraid.

[mee]

can a christian kill? not if he is following Jesus christ . history is stained with the blood of religiously backed strife. Just in our century, during the two world wars and after, we have witnessed the shameful practice of fellow religionists slaughtering each other—Catholic killing Catholic, Protestant killing Protestant, Muslim killing Muslim, and others. And the clergy on opposing sides, though of the same religion, blessed the troops that would soon be killing their religious brothers.
On this matter, the Bible is clear: Those who truly serve God are told to "seek peace and pursue it," to "beat their swords into plowshares," and not to "learn war anymore." (1 Peter 3:11; Isaiah 2:2-4)
if you belong to a religion, ask yourself: ‘If everybody on earth belonged to my religion, would wars have stopped and would this earth now be a place of genuine peace?’

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

...But in the other extreme, no, a Christian can't commit pre-meditated murder,...

Now here is where the wicket gets sticky...it seems in general Christians feel that training someone to kill for weeks/months/years...and then sending him off on to a foriegn country (say pre-emptive defense) to do what he has been trained to do (kill) is somehow acceptable...

the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go...

and then of course someone screams no, they are killing innocent civilians, whereby when our tallies are added up and the innocent civilian debate comes up...there are no innocent civilians, they just weren't wearing uniforms or they were harboring (mothers) or they would be soldiers soon (kids)...

Once you start the dance....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Now here is where the wicket gets sticky...it seems in general Christians feel that training someone to kill for weeks/months/years...and then sending him off on to a foriegn country (say pre-emptive defense) to do what he has been trained to do (kill) is somehow acceptable...

the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go...

and then of course someone screams no, they are killing innocent civilians, whereby when our tallies are added up and the innocent civilian debate comes up...there are no innocent civilians, they just weren't wearing uniforms or they were harboring (mothers) or they would be soldiers soon (kids)...

Once you start the dance....

I suppose the British should have given in to the will of the Germans, 60-100 years ago, then there would have been little to no life lost...
Of course Europe would be speaking German as the National language, as would Canada. Mexico would be speaking Japanese, and The United States? Well there wouldn't be much of one, if it still existed.

I'll tell you what. You continue to criticize Christians who pick up a gun and do what they think is best for them and theirs (which in this case includes you and yours), and let the Christians who do the killing worry about what God will think of them.

The alternative is unacceptable...

v/r

Q

[mee]

did not Jesus say to his disiples ......... you are no part of the world , the same way that he was no part of the world.All who are on the Lord’s side will be neutral as to warring nations.
Jesus said: "Because you are no part of the world, . . . the world hates you." (John 15:19)

[kenod]

Not all wars are justifed, and not all killing is justifed ... the most important factor is motive. To attack to conquer, is not the same as to attack to defend. If it is right to physically defend my family, then it is right to physically defend my fellow countrymen.