can animals choose Virtue?

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Leafblade

I think the only thing animals don't suffer from your list is wars, unless you want to refer to territorial disputes packs will sometimes get into. There's quite a few diseases out there, in the wild many are fatal. I seen a program where biologist studied a pride of lions and they recorded a lioness who lost her cub search until she died from malnutrition, not knowing that the cub was dead. Elephant herds are known for stopping at the bones of one of their dead and take time to mourn the lost of their own and even try to hide the bones from others.

The line between what's human behavior and what's not blurs the more we find out about the animal world.

I will say you have a valid point there.

[Postmaster]

But why do we have the greatest power above all creatures? For instance we can manipulate the whole animal kingdom to our liking. If Apes ran the earth would they have have animal rights groups.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

But why do we have the greatest power above all creatures? For instance we can manipulate the whole animal kingdom to our liking. If Apes ran the earth would they have have animal rights groups.

Yes, they do. Documented and filmed and displayed on the Discovery channel. Apes keep pets, and treat humans kindly, and protectively. I recommend you watch "Gorillas in the Mist". The biggest male primate I ever saw, treated the smallest human woman, like a delicate flower, for at least a dozen years.

They understood her, and her attempt to protect them. They in turn did their best to protect her...that is animal virtue.

Virtue Postmaster, is not a human thing, it is a Godly thing. Animals and Man have it because of God, not because of self.

v/r

Q

[Postmaster]

I might agree that animals can choose virtue! But I wont agree that they can show more then humans can.

[Leafblade]

Which kind of human? Does a human who goes around killing others because s/he feels like it have more virtue than a pig that adopts a kitten? I also point out that there was footage of a group of chimpanzees that went after and beat to death another chimp for no good reason. So this also raises the question do some animals take pleasure in killing just to kill?

The line is becoming less defined.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I might agree that animals can choose virtue! But I wont agree that they can show more then humans can.

They do it every day. Animals are without sin. Man is not. We are higher because God said so, not because of our behavior...

[Postmaster]

Have to disagree, humans are closer to virtue because we have a higher capability for it and it goes hand in hand with our success. And I will stick to saying that Humans carry a bigger burden then animals. Does a chicken really know what’s coming to it when a big blade comes to its head? I'm sure a human would! Our knowledge is our burden, Our knowledge brings us closer to God.

Don't forget our brains our this big from eating meat!

[Leafblade]

Funny when you mention chicken (and since I love sharing stories ). I about a silky chicken who always wanted chicks. She would go around trying to care for other hen's chicks but would often be driven off by the mother. Eventually she was able to find a rooster (or adopted some that were abandoned, forgot which one, it's been that long) and loved and cared for them.

One day the hens set up an alarm, a hawk was in the sky. They all rushed inside the coops with their chicks. The silky looked feverly for her chicks and found them a long distance from their coop, so she did the one thing she could do to protect them; she covered them with her body. The hawk killed her instead of her chicks. The farmer watched all of this, and after the hawk left he took care of the silky's chicks.

Also funny that you mention brains (no story this time ) I think our brains are so big because there was so much space that needed taking up. I read somewhere we use about 10% (I definitely know it's less than 50%) of our brains. Knowledge varies depending on the one who possess it. Give a rock a brain and it'll have knowledge that spans ages. You'll be surprised how smart crows are, knowing is how to work human tools (open packs, steal fishing rods). The things some animals know might not feel like knowledge to us, or not the same level of knowledge. I admit that they haven't built cities like humans, the closest ones to doing that are beavers (dams) prarie dogs and ants (both have underground tunnel networks), but given enough time and who knows what might happen.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Have to disagree, humans are closer to virtue because we have a higher capability for it and it goes hand in hand with our success. And I will stick to saying that Humans carry a bigger burden then animals. Does a chicken really know what’s coming to it when a big blade comes to its head? I'm sure a human would! Our knowledge is our burden, Our knowledge brings us closer to God.

Don't forget our brains our this big from eating meat!

LOL, I am reminded of the servant with 5 talents, the one with 3 talents and the one with 1 talent. I Also am acutely aware that when we die, the animal kingdom has a "feast" ahead of them...and we are the "meat".

What good is capacity, if it isn't used? How much more valuable is the limited capacity of an animal (anima...latin for spirit or soul), that is invested in its own kind or...in us humans?

I'm not suggesting we are lesser, just that often times we don't act to our full capacity, while some animals often do exceed their "capacity" for ours or their own kind's sake...

True man carries the greater burden. But neither "chicken" nor "man" know what's coming, when those we learn to trust, suddenly "snap our collective necks". The look in the dying eyes of both, is shock, confusion, and wonder at "why"?...

In chess, I think this is what might be considered, a "draw".

my 2c

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Leafblade

Funny when you mention chicken (and since I love sharing stories ). I about a silky chicken who always wanted chicks. She would go around trying to care for other hen's chicks but would often be driven off by the mother. Eventually she was able to find a rooster (or adopted some that were abandoned, forgot which one, it's been that long) and loved and cared for them.

One day the hens set up an alarm, a hawk was in the sky. They all rushed inside the coops with their chicks. The silky looked feverly for her chicks and found them a long distance from their coop, so she did the one thing she could do to protect them; she covered them with her body. The hawk killed her instead of her chicks. The farmer watched all of this, and after the hawk left he took care of the silky's chicks.

Also funny that you mention brains (no story this time ) I think our brains are so big because there was so much space that needed taking up. I read somewhere we use about 10% (I definitely know it's less than 50%) of our brains. Knowledge varies depending on the one who possess it. Give a rock a brain and it'll have knowledge that spans ages. You'll be surprised how smart crows are, knowing is how to work human tools (open packs, steal fishing rods). The things some animals know might not feel like knowledge to us, or not the same level of knowledge. I admit that they haven't built cities like humans, the closest ones to doing that are beavers (dams) prarie dogs and ants (both have underground tunnel networks), but given enough time and who knows what might happen.

I don't think anyone knows how much we use however, we do know that the "dormant" parts of our brains often begin functioning when another part is damaged beyond repair (true it has to re-learn what we once knew).

In some circles that would be considered as a "redundant system backup"...



v/r

Q

[Leafblade]

Now I wondering if someone suffers a brain injury that leaves them unable to speak, move, or do anything, does another part of the brain activate and does something to keep the conscious patient mentally active in another way? Do they live life in a waking dream like state?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Leafblade

Now I wondering if someone suffers a brain injury that leaves them unable to speak, move, or do anything, does another part of the brain activate and does something to keep the conscious patient mentally active in another way? Do they live life in a waking dream like state?

I think sometimes (often called a semi-coma). But I also think that is the time when those close (or who care for the one), must use their efforts to attempt to stimulate the afflicted into full consciousness...

Sometimes it doesn't work, othertimes it works miraculously.

v/r

Q

p.s. animals are great for doing that...especially if there is a bond between the animal and the human...

[Postmaster]

One day the hens set up an alarm, a hawk was in the sky. They all rushed inside the coops with their chicks. The silky looked feverly for her chicks and found them a long distance from their coop, so she did the one thing she could do to protect them; she covered them with her body. The hawk killed her instead of her chicks. The farmer watched all of this, and after the hawk left he took care of the silky's chicks.

Chickens don't mother there offspring after birth only for a short while if that even I think. There not programmed to do so. I'm sure there is extreme cases in any animal activity behavior. Self sacrifice for the protection of others is something that can be connected to virtue because there is no logical explanation for it and don't care what theories are out there.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Chickens don't mother there offspring after birth only for a short while if that even I think. There not programmed to do so. I'm sure there is extreme cases in any animal activity behavior. Self sacrifice for the protection of others is something that can be connected to virtue because there is no logical explanation for it and don't care what theories are out there.

That is because "biddies" are hatched pretty much ready to fend for themselves. ducklings on the other hand stay very close to the Hen, for a season, in order to learn how to survive. And the Hen is extremely protective of her brood.

Primates will carry their young and tend to them for 1 to 2 years. They are even known to carry the dead baby for days, trying to get them to move. Almost like, "If I love you more, you'll wake up". It has been noted that a mother primate will go off into the woods and die, of broken heart, due to the death of a baby.

Animals have a body and a soul.

Man has body, soul and a "spirit". That spirit is the only thing that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Virtue, does not come from the spirit, since the spirit is part of God and a gift to man, but not the definer of how we behave (that is obvious in today's world). Therefore the "virtue" must be part of the soul. Perhaps the "spirit" is man's only saving grace, since it seems we are the most destructive of all the animal species on the planet. (no, I'm not going tree-hugger on you). What I am saying is that from observation, of all the animals on the planet, man seems to be short in the "virtue" section. Indeed, rats tend to show more compassion and concern for their own kind than man does for his own kind, let alone the rest of the world.

Even biblically speaking Post, the dogs shewn more compassion for the dying beggar, than his fellow men (by attempting to lick his sores).

I think, that if I were stranded in a forest and had one of a series of companions of similar survival characteristics to choose from to be with me (man or wolf/dog/cat/ape), I would choose the animal.

Why? Man does not care of virtue when it is life or death. Man does not care of virtue unless he deliberately chooses to. Animals do not comprehend death as we do. And by nature they want to be close to man (that is the original design). So their potential virtue remains intact. They want to please the "master" (also by design). Man fights over who is master (very unvirtuous).

Loyalty is a virtue. Man has a hard time learning that, but animals are much quicker.

Life is precious, yet man will let it slip away (out of self preservation), animals tend to try to save it despite the hazard to their own preservation.

Ya know, maybe you are correct, humans choose virtue, but with animals it is hard wired.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

bmp