can animals choose Virtue?

Postmaster · 04-16-2006, 12:38 PM

Just curious to your views in regards to this, does anyone think animals can choose virtue?

taijasi · 04-16-2006, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Just curious to your views in regards to this, does anyone think animals can choose virtue?

My answer would be yes, because animals have some control (even much control) over their behaviour, they are capable of choosing virtue - and tend to do so a great deal.

We would do well not to judge them, or contemplate the question, from the human point of view and understanding of virtue ... but instead ask what it means for us to make this choice, then ask if there is a basic recognition of choice for our domesticated companions.

While I do not think that animals in the wild necessarily fall under this category, I do think it applies to domesticated cats, dogs, elephants and monkeys. Those of us with dogs or cats know quite well that animals can feel remorse, guilt, or shame if they misbehave, and they are aware that we will discipline them for bad behavior, or rewared them for good behavior. What is it about them, however, which drives them to Good? Depending on how we answer that question, we may or may not believe that they can choose virtue.

andrew

path_of_one · 04-17-2006, 12:39 AM

I think domesticated animals can choose obedience to their master's will or not. But virtue is a more difficult concept, because it is problematic to define for animals. What is virtuous for a human is not necessarily virtuous for an animal.

Humans would not see a mustang stallion trampling a handicapped foal to death as virtuous behavior if done in humanity, but in the world of feral horses, he is ensuring the foal will not cause predators to be more likely to attack the group. Much of domesticated animals' behaviors toward us are grounded in such instinct. When a horse bucks, for example, it is generally not a non-virtuous act, it is just something the horse does- because the saddle pinched it, or the rider is sitting improperly, or it doesn't feel like doing what it's told, or it just plain feels good. Point is- we see it as virtuous that the horse behaves all the time and doesn't buck, rear, bite or kick- but these are virtues we have assigned- actions for our benefit, not for the benefit of the horse. The horse can choose to obey us or not, but it is not a question of virtue. If the horse bites, kicks, bucks, runs us over- none of these are sinful, bad, or evil actions since they are natural behaviors for the horse. They are just undesireable behaviors, so we try to train the horse to obey us in order that our needs and desires may be met in our domesticated companions.

In short, I think virtue may not be uniquely human, but it is certainly defined differently by humans than other species, rendering nearly impossible for us to pass judgment on animal behavior, unless to try to shape it to meet our expectations- to impose a non-natural system of behavior over the natural, instinctive one. This is not a bad thing- I train my horses, dogs, and cat and it makes life with them pleasant. They get love and food and shelter and protection, a good long life filled with hugs and kisses. But I recognize that in training them, I am not making them virtuous, but rather I am making them obedient to a system of my creation and not their own. I keep in mind their own personalities and instincts and limitations, and that their own view of the world is quite different from my own.

Thomas · 04-17-2006, 01:57 PM

I don't think so.

Virtue requires a moral structure, and a moral structure requires a notion of the ideal, or the good, a paradigm outside of oneself. This in turn requires the ability for philosophical reflection.

Animals make decisions based on necessity, not moral judgements, and the decision can be quite complex, but I don't think virtue comes into the mix on any comparable term as we would understand it.

Thomas

Dondi · 04-17-2006, 03:13 PM

I'm sorta siding on Thomas on this one. How do we know that animals aren't just conditioned to behave the way they do? Your reward them for doing good and punish them for being bad, but that's based on YOUR moral judgements, not theirs. They already have a natural instinct, which when you apply human rules are often conflicted with their natural inclinations.

Humans, on the other hand, are made with reasoning capacities that can make moral judgements.

Leafblade · 04-18-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

I'm sorta siding on Thomas on this one. How do we know that animals aren't just conditioned to behave the way they do? Your reward them for doing good and punish them for being bad, but that's based on YOUR moral judgements, not theirs. They already have a natural instinct, which when you apply human rules are often conflicted with their natural inclinations.

Humans, on the other hand, are made with reasoning capacities that can make moral judgements.

I'm going to question this by talking about some big differences between my and my neighbors feline companions and the big difference in their behavior towards kittens. When my sister tried to bring in a kitten into the house, my feline companion was very cold to it, she often shunned him and would sometimes attack him if he got too close. We did punish her whenever she did this however her behavior didn't change. We ended up passing him off to another family that could take care of him without the stress our older cat brought.

When one of my neighbors daughters brought in a stray cat. Their older cat who lived outside most of the time would almost always be near the kitten. They slept together, played together, ate together, did virtually everything together. With the amount of time they spend outside the neighbors hardly had as much influence in terms of behavior, unlike my family who did have more influence in behavior (so you know we do let our cat come outside when it's warm, she just doesn't like the noise of the city.)

The behavior of other animals can be far more complex than we humans give it credit for. What may be true for one individual may be different for another individiual. I read about a biologist who seen a wolf and coyote, who are usually arch rivals, play together until another pack arrived. Like path_of_one said, where we may see an adult killing a foal as cruel, it maybe an act of mercy, keeping it from suffering from a prolonged death. It could also be an act of jeleousy, however it's difficult to tell. Animals are individuals too, and I do think that some (the ones who are very successful) might be able to ponder some things that we aren't able to understand.

Quahom1 · 04-18-2006, 07:33 AM

Back to the original question, by the originator.

Can animals choose virtue? Yes.

They can decide to excercise virtue (excellence in thought), in maintaining their species. Virtue is a maintaining in excellence, in what ever discipline is at hand...

Is a cat virtuous in killing mice? Yes. Do the mice think so? irrelevant to the cat. Is a mouse virtuous in avoiding the cat? Yes. Does the cat think so? irrelevant to the mouse.

Virtue is excellence in maintaining a status, regardless of the odds or situation against maintaining such status.

Virtue is truly being the best at what is considered right.

Is it subject to opinion? yes (from outsiders looking in). Does that matter? Obviously only to outsiders...

v/r

Q

seattlegal · 04-18-2006, 10:17 AM

Hmm, it brings to mind this thread titled "Horse Sense."

Postmaster · 04-19-2006, 01:07 AM

Funny how god leaves us to speculate such questions, maybe we shouldn't.

But I believe when something or someone has the capacity to do something it is there fate to accomplish it, reagrdless of what it is. Animals do not have the same capacity as humans so there virtue can not be expected to have the same standard. If they did, they would be human.

All depends on what you consider virtue to be, so my oppinion is NO.

taijasi · 04-19-2006, 11:25 AM

Isn't it a bit like asking if humans can choose Divine Omnipotence? lol Depending on who you ask, the answer will range from "hell no!" to probably not to "not in the way that God(s) can."

It's like importing the standards and qualities from the next higher Kingdom, into the lower/lesser. So one question might be - Do you beleive that we might evolve, from kingdom to kingdom?

If so, then the most "elect" of a lesser kingdom could very well display some of the qualities/standards of the next one, but could hardly be expected to exemplify these qualities. And that's why most of us simply said, no, animals can't choose virtue. I'll say again, I think they can, and do, just as some humans choose "Divine omnipotence." It definitely requires us to be flexible with these concepts ...

andrew

Quahom1 · 04-20-2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Isn't it a bit like asking if humans can choose Divine Omnipotence? lol Depending on who you ask, the answer will range from "hell no!" to probably not to "not in the way that God(s) can."

It's like importing the standards and qualities from the next higher Kingdom, into the lower/lesser. So one question might be - Do you beleive that we might evolve, from kingdom to kingdom?

If so, then the most "elect" of a lesser kingdom could very well display some of the qualities/standards of the next one, but could hardly be expected to exemplify these qualities. And that's why most of us simply said, no, animals can't choose virtue. I'll say again, I think they can, and do, just as some humans choose "Divine omnipotence." It definitely requires us to be flexible with these concepts ...

andrew

Indeed, why does a porpose push a sailor dozens of miles to shore? Not his kind, not important to him as far as life is concerned, unless life is so precious...that even animals understand what we don't.

Blessed is the animal that looks after man...the virtue of such is not lost on God.

v/r

Q

Postmaster · 04-20-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Isn't it a bit like asking if humans can choose Divine Omnipotence? lol Depending on who you ask, the answer will range from "hell no!" to probably not to "not in the way that God(s) can."

It's like importing the standards and qualities from the next higher Kingdom, into the lower/lesser. So one question might be - Do you beleive that we might evolve, from kingdom to kingdom?

If so, then the most "elect" of a lesser kingdom could very well display some of the qualities/standards of the next one, but could hardly be expected to exemplify these qualities. And that's why most of us simply said, no, animals can't choose virtue. I'll say again, I think they can, and do, just as some humans choose "Divine omnipotence." It definitely requires us to be flexible with these concepts ...

andrew

I think what makes humans different is we realised divinity or chose virtue.

seattlegal · 04-20-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Isn't it a bit like asking if humans can choose Divine Omnipotence? lol Depending on who you ask, the answer will range from "hell no!" to probably not to "not in the way that God(s) can."

It's like importing the standards and qualities from the next higher Kingdom, into the lower/lesser. So one question might be - Do you beleive that we might evolve, from kingdom to kingdom?

If so, then the most "elect" of a lesser kingdom could very well display some of the qualities/standards of the next one, but could hardly be expected to exemplify these qualities. And that's why most of us simply said, no, animals can't choose virtue. I'll say again, I think they can, and do, just as some humans choose "Divine omnipotence." It definitely requires us to be flexible with these concepts ...

andrew

Funny thing about virtue, it's not really virtuous when it's connected with the idea of personal gain/advancement within a hierarchial arrangement.

Postmaster · 04-20-2006, 11:11 AM

Who said it's hierarchical? If anything humans are cursed lol

disease, wars, emotional pains nothing like the other creatures.

Leafblade · 04-20-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Who said it's hierarchical? If anything humans are cursed lol

disease, wars, emotional pains nothing like the other creatures.

I think the only thing animals don't suffer from your list is wars, unless you want to refer to territorial disputes packs will sometimes get into. There's quite a few diseases out there, in the wild many are fatal. I seen a program where biologist studied a pride of lions and they recorded a lioness who lost her cub search until she died from malnutrition, not knowing that the cub was dead. Elephant herds are known for stopping at the bones of one of their dead and take time to mourn the lost of their own and even try to hide the bones from others.

The line between what's human behavior and what's not blurs the more we find out about the animal world.