Can you go beyand grace?

[Curios Mike]

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

Say we become a Christian and repent and turn from sin (after all repent means forsake), but 5 10 years down the road we go back to the old person we once where, does this mean we have fallen from grace, and are no longer a child of God? If not why does this scripture say "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? And is How far do you have to go to be considered someone "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" And is it a paticular sin, or all sins, or just plain out denying Christ after you have known him? And what is your opinion of just plain out denying him? ANd do you have scriptures that can back this up?

[mee]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

Say we become a Christian and repent and turn from sin (after all repent means forsake), but 5 10 years down the road we go back to the old person we once where, does this mean we have fallen from grace, and are no longer a child of God? If not why does this scripture say "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? And is How far do you have to go to be considered someone "who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" And is it a paticular sin, or all sins, or just plain out denying Christ after you have known him? And what is your opinion of just plain out denying him? ANd do you have scriptures that can back this up?

The sin mentioned at Hebrews 10:26-29 does not apply to one from which the sinner is able to repent in sincere grief, appealing to God through Jesus for divine mercy. The sinner has actually renounced the Son of God as his savior and esteemed his sacrifice as having no redeeming value.—Compare Hebrews 6:4-6.

Such a person is sinning against accurate knowledge and the operation of God’s holy spirit, and there is no possibility of his repenting and availing himself of God’s provision for salvation through Christ. God has made no other means available for saving such a willful sinner.

[Curios Mike]

So if one guys back into sin..... does he not deny Christ by their own actions? Maybe not by mouth but by actions of the heart? Would that apply here?

By the way thanx for that comment it brought some things to light namely "Mark 3:28 Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"
NKJV
In other words the only sin unforgivable is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. But again that makes my above question even more frightening!

[Bandit]

i think it is possible for some who have been filled with the Holy Ghost to become entangled with sin & distant themselves from God.
i personally do not believe in the once saved always saved doctrine.

my answer is YES & NO. some will fall away but they will be renewed & some will fall away & never be renewed. others are denied right from the start because God will not enter the spirit of an unrepented, ubelieveing heart.
Others will stay steadfast from the beginning of there walk & never depart from the Truth.

i think blasphemey is the only unforgivable sin & it is usually pretty obvious (to me) when someone is doing that.

(Hebrews 6:4-6) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

So if one guys back into sin..... does he not deny Christ by their own actions? Maybe not by mouth but by actions of the heart? Would that apply here?

By the way thanx for that comment it brought some things to light namely "Mark 3:28 Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"
NKJV
In other words the only sin unforgivable is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. But again that makes my above question even more frightening!

The very fact that Jesus stated that "blasphemy against the spirit" would be forgiven neither "in this system of things nor in that to come" should convince any who have doubts on the subject that Jehovah pronounces final judgment against some even during "this system." Such become "guilty of everlasting sin." They will have "no forgiveness forever." (Mark 3:28, 29) Why, then, should they be resurrected?

we should not go around threatening people with destruction. not to say that anyone is doing that ,but i have heard some do that ,We should share Jehovah’s viewpoint on things. Of him, it is said that he is "patient," because "he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Jehovah is a perfect Judge. (Deuteronomy 32:4) The same is true of Christ Jesus. (John 5:30) so in the end its all to do with apersons heart contion.and if they have got a rebellious attitude its a good job that its only Jehovah and Jesus christ that can read hearts

[Curios Mike]

I guess what I'm askin is becuase I was on fire as some would put it in my late teans then early 20's, but somehwere in their I've been struggling to stay the course. I've always believed in God and that Jesus is the only begotten, but I havnt always done what is ask of me by the holy spirit or by his word. I've sinned and even rebelled against God. Possibly the holy ghost by not doin the things I should, and in turn have lead some away from God rather then to him. I didnt lead anyone away intentionaly, but had a feeling that was happining by my faithlessness. I know the scripture says "all have sinned, and that all have fallen short of the glory of God", But doesnt Repent mean to forsake! So I forsoke for a while then went back to my old self.... And not one one accuasion, but on many. LOL I'm a yoyo like I used to call them when I was younger. I'm statting this not becuase I like debating, but becuase I'm in a spirtual delema, and worried maybe i have went to far now. Especially of leading people astray> I never knew God was using me to lead people, though I knew he called me to this, but I've never been a leader. But now in hind sight I've seen alot that have followed after me. When I was and wasnt following Christ. So I wonder if I have Commited the unpardonable sin? Part of me says no, becuase I fell bad, and its seems God still grants me wisdom(If you knew me you would know why I say that... To make a long story short I'm not very smart and have a low IQ((simple))). But the other part thinks maybe I have becuase I'm not, nor do I feel I could be down balling my eyes out for his forgiveness. Again I've never stopped believing, just stopped following! But in doing so leading people away instead of to.?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

I guess what I'm askin is becuase I was on fire as some would put it in my late teans then early 20's, but somehwere in their I've been struggling to stay the course. I've always believed in God and that Jesus is the only begotten, but I havnt always done what is ask of me by the holy spirit or by his word. I've sinned and even rebelled against God. Possibly the holy ghost by not doin the things I should, and in turn have lead some away from God rather then to him. I didnt lead anyone away intentionaly, but had a feeling that was happining by my faithlessness. I know the scripture says "all have sinned, and that all have fallen short of the glory of God", But doesnt Repent mean to forsake! So I forsoke for a while then went back to my old self.... And not one one accuasion, but on many. LOL I'm a yoyo like I used to call them when I was younger. I'm statting this not becuase I like debating, but becuase I'm in a spirtual delema, and worried maybe i have went to far now. Especially of leading people astray> I never knew God was using me to lead people, though I knew he called me to this, but I've never been a leader. But now in hind sight I've seen alot that have followed after me. When I was and wasnt following Christ. So I wonder if I have Commited the unpardonable sin? Part of me says no, becuase I fell bad, and its seems God still grants me wisdom(If you knew me you would know why I say that... To make a long story short I'm not very smart and have a low IQ((simple))). But the other part thinks maybe I have becuase I'm not, nor do I feel I could be down balling my eyes out for his forgiveness. Again I've never stopped believing, just stopped following! But in doing so leading people away instead of to.?

hi MIke. i am the same way. I know what it is to be 100% full & what it is to be 50% full & to be completely empty. i dont know what it is to be 200 or 500% full, because i dont know how, yet. & i dont know how to stay 100% full, but i try.

i think there are times when we may feel forsaken, but often when we want God to move through us & touch us, if we are holding something back, He may not. That is not to say that He wont in the near future.

i think it is important to not get too far away from God. from what i can see being entangled in sin is not the same thing as sinnning willfully.
there may be something real big laying in the road right now that you can't get around. i dont know.
But- when we can surrender again, lift up our arms & hearts to the Living God & ask, ASK, for Him to show Himself to us & mean it, He will come & when He does come that is when I ask, "Lord Please do not ever take your spirit away from me. No matter how much I fall or fail or go against your will, I need your presence & I dont want you to ever leave me."

There is no greater peace & joy than being in His presence & reaching for the endless supply of His spirit. Because THAT is where we are going to be in eternity.
i hope that helps some. & you may even want to ask or find one of the saints (pillars) of your church to pray with you & help renew your spirit to the living God. Yet, we able to do this on our own & we learn how to over time.
so there are times, when God is everywhere, except saturated right into our very own spirit, yet He is less than an atom/molecule away.

i think we are all like yo yos, but God is not a Yo Yo---WE are the Yo Yos.

Welcome to CR!

[Curios Mike]

When we or the scripture says willfully... What is meant by this? Willfully ignoring God, by Willfully partaking in a sin, or willfully denying Christ? Course Peter denied him and was forgiven? So what sin can will do willfully that keeps us from Grace? or is it all sin? the scripture in the verse in hebrews it doesnt seem very clear, and it looks as if its any sin.?.?

[Bandit]

i can only speak for me. i think there is conviciton when we have the spirit of God. if someone never feels any conviciton for anything, then for me, something would be wrong & there may be a very small relationship there.

doing something wrong, making mistakes, does not mean we deny Christ, but i guess it is possible to get to that point where we have no conscience about the things that pertain to God.


-if i willfully keep doing something, then there would be no conviction-so i tell myself it is ok to steal or talk bad things about people.

-when i am entangled in something like stealing or gossip, i feel what i am doing is wrong & i want to get out of it, but i dont know how.

this can go for anything that causes problems, pain or harm to ourself or others.

do you see any difference there between willfully & being entangled?

that is about all i have to say on it, so i hope it helps. if not right now, maybe in the future it will ring a bell.

[Curios Mike]

I know where your coming from, but not sure we can explian entangliny scripturely. Thanx for your imput.

[Thomas]

Hi Mike -

No man is perfect, so it's wrong to assume that someone has 'accepted' God and thus become without fault - when Christ talks of those 'justified' before God, it is He who is our Advocate.

No sin is too great that it is unforgivable, no lamb so lost it cannot be found - in this I particularly like Buddhist iconography which always places the Buddha in the center of any depiction of hell - God's mercy is Infinite, so it is not upon us to say 'he can forgive this, he can't forgive that,' - we simply do not know, and it is the final folly to say "I cannot be saved," because in effect we are pre-determining what God can and cannot do. We close our hearts to his salvivic grace.

On this consider the parable of the wise and unwise virgins - Matthew 25.

The sin against the Holy Spirit that cannot be forgiven is the rejection of God in assuming we are beyond redemption - it is not that we shall be punished eternally for that rejection, but rather by that rejection, God cannot save us because we choose not to be saved.

This is the sin of pride.

The corollary is those who believe that because they say yes once, that yes will suffice and stands always depite what they do.

This is the sin of sloth.

On his deathbed, the philosopher Voltaire was supposedly asked by a confessor, "Do you reject Satan and all his works?" To which Voltaire is said to have replied, "Father, it's too late now to be making new enemies." The same two errors: One - it is never too late to be saved; Two - no number of enemies, even if his name be Legion, is number enough to defeat Christ.

If you are looking for another Scriptural reference, try the Parable of the Prodigal Son - Luke 15

Thomas

[Curios Mike]

Maybe I missed something thomas, but could you tell me what these scriptures mean?

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

"Mark 3:28 Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"
NKJV

Thanx,
Mike

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Mike.. welcome to CR..

I would like to comment on your question.. it is my understanding that He who hears the truth and denies Christ STILL (remember that the Holy Spirit reveals All truth) there is no sacrifice for sins.. hence the blasphemy of the Spirit which I believe is the rejection of the Truth.

1John 5:6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

It also says that He who says he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.. We are all sinners and we sin willfully everyday in thought and deed.

The bible also says that it would be better had they not learned the truth...

[Curios Mike]

I think this is the verse you are talking about?
1 John 1:5-10
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV



But where is this one and what is it partianing to? "The bible also says that it would be better had they not learned the truth..."

[Faithfulservant]

2peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.