Can you renouce power?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Vimalakirti

I trust it wasn't your intention, but you did manage to strike a patronising note. I don't know that I have any more "on my mind" than you do. My intent was to pose a challenging topic for the forum. If you don't want to engage that topic because from your perspective the problematic has no meaning or importance, I understand and respect that. In that case, there's no basis for discussion, and case closed.

But I do have a couple questions for you. Is the God you refer to a being of greater power than man, or a being beyond the idea of power; is he literally the Lord of Hosts or does he render the idea of a Lord of Hosts vulgar and trivial; is he personhood writ large, or is he no respecter of persons?

the problematic power here is - what you say is not making sense, except only in your mind.

that first post is not very challenging to me...talking about pig poop, snorting drugs, toe nails, scratching my balls & power smelling like farts.
what kind of response is expected to that, except for another goofy line.
Then you speak of serious questioning of all traditions & doctrines.
Some dogmatic belief system you have going there yourself.
Could it be the Vimalakirti Religion?

in answer to the latter, like it really matters to you- God is everything you say except for: render the idea of a Lord of Hosts vulgar and trivial.

But hey man, whatever floats your boat there

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm afraid you are in no position to determine what is superficial, and what is serious. I dig deeper in life than you realize, and others here do so as well. Arrogance is a superficial concept as well...

heavy winds are beginning to rise.

v/r

Q

I've started this reply several times, trying to find words skilful enough to bring this to a close without things becoming even more embarassing than they already are.

I apologize for suggesting superficiality. That was certainly a slip, arising from my frustration.

Look, I did not put my topic out there with any target in mind, or with any aim to offend anyone. I meant to put out a challenge to everyone, myself included. Certainly I put it in an unorthodox form. But this topic is nothing new or peculiar. Hard self questioning about our motives is natural to anyone who takes spiritual life at all seriously.

Certainly the problems of power and its taming have been articulated and regulated in many different ways, including in the ways that you've suggested. I don't dispute the practical validity of any of this. We live under a variety of systems and institutions designed to channel power along legimate and beneficial tracks. But the problem in my opinion has not been solved for all time, and can't be this side of human perfection, and to believe it has - again this is only my opinion - really is arrogance.

Every day brings evidence of the misuse of religion along with every other human institution to rationalize violence and injustice. None of us is immune to this; each of us is capable of misusing whatever small authority we may have. It only makes sense that we should all be on guard. Is it arrogant to point to the dangers of arrogance and the belief in our own inerrancy, that we are always the guys in the white hats? Do I need some special sanction to make a healthy challenge for us all to do better?

Your friend Bandit objects to some of the language of the piece. Again, it wasn't cast that way to offend but to have rhetorical impact. I'm sorry that it obviously offended you and Bandit. But it just makes me wonder: why such defensiveness? why do we need to be so diplomatic, so hedged around in the language we use? aren't we more grown up that that?

But there I go again! Once these things start badly, it's hard to get them on track.

Anyway, while I think much of the disagreement has been more about style than substance, there may be a far more fundamental issue undeneath it all. My sense from you and especially from Bandit is that to attack or undermine power as an idea is in some sense an attack on the idea of God; i.e., that for you there's an identity between power and diety that makes any attack on power itself unthinkable and nearly blasphemous. My idea of God is a little different: that he is beyond power, that power is a pitiful metaphor, that God is precisely the refuge from power, which originates in a far lower realm. And no, this is not a newly minted approach but one with a long pedigree even in your own traditions, but one that does appear to be putting us at odds.

Reply again if you like, but I think we should wind this baby up, wish one another well and trust that we're only separated by mere words and our frail understandings.

I wish you & Bandit more loving kindness that I was able to show in these replies. All the best.

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by Bandit

the problematic power here is - what you say is not making sense, except only in your mind.

that first post is not very challenging to me...talking about pig poop, snorting drugs, toe nails, scratching my balls & power smelling like farts.
what kind of response is expected to that, except for another goofy line.
Then you speak of serious questioning of all traditions & doctrines.
Some dogmatic belief system you have going there yourself.
Could it be the Vimalakirti Religion?

in answer to the latter, like it really matters to you- God is everything you say except for: render the idea of a Lord of Hosts vulgar and trivial.

But hey man, whatever floats your boat there

Hi Bandit. Please see my above more extended reply to Quahom. The tone you're taking here is regrettable. My intention was never to offend, but only to offer a lively challenge to complacency, something a little different, and I'm naturally disappointed frankly that you've fallen to the level of outright abuse. However, my tone has not been consistently up to my own standards either, and for that I apologize.

I don't evidently know the precise details of your personal theology - I've only guessed at its general drift - but it appears to compel you to take strong exception to my approach. I can only assure you that when all is said and done I'm making much less of an attack on your cherished beliefs than you think I am.

Let's wind this pointless exchange up, and wish one another well.

All the best.

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by Vimalakirti

Serious, but superficial. Dig deeper, beneath your rationalisations. It's not a question of composing comforting definitions but of facing an inherent problematic.

Viimalakirti - please consider when you post - is this the type of thing that is going to foster dialogue, or are you merely haranguing others? Please read the Code of Conduct - some of your posts are coming across close to personal attacks.

... Bruce, Moderator

[Bandit]

i was only trying to understand what you are saying Vimalakirti. But when something does not make sense, the only way I know is to ask a couple of times to try & better understand through a different wording.


here is an article about renouncing power that i found interesting. It leans toward the fragile reality of humanity.
Christians asked by Pope to renounce power and wealth -01/06/05

Christians are called to renounce power and wealth and should choose instead to serve others with Christ's humility, Pope Benedict XVI told his weekly general audience today.

Some 23,000 pilgrims gathered in St Peter's Square to greet the new Pope, reports the US-based Catholic News Service.

He focussed his weekly catechesis [teaching] on the second chapter of St. Paul's Letter to the Philippians, in which the apostle invites Christians to "have among yourselves the same attitude" that Jesus Christ had, such as "humility, selflessness, detachment and generosity."

Even though Christ was equal to God, he did not exploit his power and use it "as an instrument of triumph, sign of distance or expression of crushing supremacy," Benedict said. "Just the opposite he emptied himself, immersing himself without hesitation" in the "fragile reality" of the human condition.

the whole article is here
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/ne...5061pope.shtml

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Vimalakirti

I've started this reply several times, trying to find words skilful enough to bring this to a close without things becoming even more embarassing than they already are.

I apologize for suggesting superficiality. That was certainly a slip, arising from my frustration.

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

I understand what you mean by giving up power. But can one really ever give up power? And should we try? Senator John McCain spent 5 years at the Hannoi Hilton as a prisoner of war. He is a senator today, because then LT Commander McCain refused to give in to the power of the enemy. His own personal power kept him alive.

I submit that to be without power is to be dead. We all have power of one sort or another. Even the bag lady on a DC street has the "power" to turn my head in her direction, and to convince me to open my wallet, from time to time.

Again I submit to you that there are three types of power, two of which we can do without, but one of which we can't live without.

my two cents.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

v/r

Q

Right. I never even talked to you about this. Well one time we did the Guard Post thing...when no one else wanted to do it on the sabbath (so to speak).

[InLove]

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...

Namaste, Vimalakirti,

Then there is the power of "words". In reading back over this thread, it seems that the misunderstandings have to do with the sort of power that one word, say a word like "superficial" can have. I know what you meant, and I know your question was serious. But I can see how that particular choice of words, especially in type instead of in person, might be taken as offensive in the context of the conversation.

Recently, I have said a couple of things on other threads that I kind of wish I hadn't said--at least not the way I said them. I have been blessed, so far, that no one has gotten too upset with me. I have been thinking of going back and apologizing, or trying to mend any bridges I may have burned, but I guess I didn't burn them all the way down, yet. I think it is really great how you and the others here have handled the whole thing.

Anyway, I guess I would have to say, something along the lines of what Q mentioned--I believe there is power outside of us, power within us, and power all around us. Sometimes there is power against us, but our power lies in how we choose to react.

Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

...Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

LOL water is not blue, the atmosphere just makes it look so.

sailor sends.

Q

[InLove]

<sigh>

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

<sigh>

InPeace,
InLove

Ok, ok...clear blue water, clear blue water, clear...

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

Viimalakirti - please consider when you post - is this the type of thing that is going to foster dialogue, or are you merely haranguing others? Please read the Code of Conduct - some of your posts are coming across close to personal attacks.

... Bruce, Moderator

I'm afraid I must disagree. Please see my email.

Shanti.

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by Bandit

here is an article about renouncing power that i found interesting. It leans toward the fragile reality of humanity.
Christians asked by Pope to renounce power and wealth -01/06/05

Thanks for the reference, Bandit. Take care.

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No harm, no foul. Bandit and I don't usually do the "Guard and Post" thing either...

I understand what you mean by giving up power. But can one really ever give up power? And should we try? Senator John McCain spent 5 years at the Hannoi Hilton as a prisoner of war. He is a senator today, because then LT Commander McCain refused to give in to the power of the enemy. His own personal power kept him alive.

I submit that to be without power is to be dead. We all have power of one sort or another. Even the bag lady on a DC street has the "power" to turn my head in her direction, and to convince me to open my wallet, from time to time.

Again I submit to you that there are three types of power, two of which we can do without, but one of which we can't live without.

my two cents.

v/r

Q

Thanks for your thoughts - though I would give you credit for more than just two cents here!

I wouldn't dispute anything you say. The problem of power can be approached from many angles, depending on one's intent and on the context. What you say about John McCain is certainly true from one side. You might equally say that he survived precisely because he gave up power. The fact that he was able to survive all of that and even pursue a successful career of public service speaks to an ability to "let go". If it were only a case of clinging to a sense of power I think he would have become a very embittered man, which clearly he has not.

Even in my not-well-received-so-far! piece I make the point that power is problematic but can't be simply given up. Perhaps one point of misunderstanding is that my piece may have been taken as some sort of statement of doctrine or against some particular doctrine, when in fact it was merely evoking a basic paradox.

Now, you may disagree here, but I don't think anyone can have a "right" answer regarding what is not after all anything with a precise definition but which is instead one of the complex grounds of the human condition. We each approach the problem following on our concrete situations and what appears to us most essential and most in need of emphasis. It shouldn't be surprising if sometimes our dialogues are no more than ships passing in the night.

Cheers. And take care.

[Vimalakirti]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...

Namaste, Vimalakirti,

Then there is the power of "words".
Anyway, I guess I would have to say, something along the lines of what Q mentioned--I believe there is power outside of us, power within us, and power all around us. Sometimes there is power against us, but our power lies in how we choose to react.

Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

And namaste to you, In Love. Thanks for your gentle words, and for your own thoughts on the mysteries of power.

Shanti.