Can you renouce power? - Page 3

Vimalakirti · 06-03-2005, 06:51 PM

I think that one thing that needs to be pointed out that hasn't so far is that the replys have been in general - as far as I can tell - from one particular faith community. I think the situation might have been less polarized and more nuanced if we'd had replys from a greater range of perspectives.

Cheers to all.

Vimalakirti · 06-03-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, Kindest Regards, Peace to All Here, and...

Everyone breathe, and repeat "Clear blue water, clear blue water."

InPeace,
InLove

BTW, You might be interested in "Walking meditation" posted in the Buddhism section.

Shanti.

InLove · 06-03-2005, 07:09 PM

Namaste, Vimalakirti

Quote:

BTW, You might be interested in "Walking meditation" posted in the Buddhism section.

Quote:

Funny you should mention that! I believe you will find I have already commented on that one!

InPeace,
InLove

lunamoth · 06-07-2005, 02:44 AM

I had to check and make sure this is the Belief and Spirituality forum

. My 2 c, worth 1 c after inflation, is that it is appropriate to pose challenging ideas in these fora, as long as it is done respectfully. If we are just here to pat each others backs, hug and "tolerate" each other we are not going to really get to the heart of the beliefs of others or to examine our own beliefs very deeply. Huge blocks of cut and paste verbage (usually copied from someone else's website) are not very inviting, but when someone has a different way of opening dialog, in V's case using fresh poetry and creative prose, I don't think that should automatically warrent alarm. Anyway, I know the moderators here do a great job and it's a fine line. I'll post my reaction to the poem in another post so this can be removed if it's too off topic.

lunamoth

lunamoth · 06-07-2005, 03:03 AM

I think where I have a hard time getting a handle on this question is in setting up power (ego) in opposition to love (selflessness). I'm not sure it's a real dichotomy as it is painted in the poem. As someone, I think V, said in a follow up post, you can gain (a form of) power by giving up power. It's like matter and energy, it can change forms.

I like the poem because it illustrates the millions of ways large and small we transform, give up, harness power minute to minute in our lives. It's not like we can have a pat answer or a definite set of rules to help us decide how to direct power. I always go back to the metaphor of living in tension between our ideal (perfect compassion, justice) and what we can actually do in this world. You can't throw up your hands and say it's impossible, but you also can't ignore the reality (feeding the kids) of your life. You keep making those day to day decisions striving toward the ideal.

The idea that seemed to stir up trouble, that only God has absolute power, is provacative (no kidding!). But if you believe, as Christians do, that all that you have and all that you are is not really yours, or his or theirs, but God's, then this makes sense. The problems start when you think that you have absolute (there's that word again) knowledge of God's will and in effect take that power and authority for yourself.

lunamoth

InLove · 06-07-2005, 03:56 AM

The words you say and the way you say them make so much sense to me. I will stop fawning soon. I am just so very glad to have you back here.

I do not throw bouquets as a rule--but that does not mean I do not wish to.

Can one renounce power? I suppose one can try. Personally, I cannot imagine why one would choose to do so.

Well, anyway, as usual, I am
InPeace,
InLove

lunamoth · 06-07-2005, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InLove

The words you say and the way you say them make so much sense to me. I will stop fawning soon. I am just so very glad to have you back here.

I do not throw bouquets as a rule--but that does not mean I do not wish to.

Can one renounce power? I suppose one can try. Personally, I cannot imagine why one would choose to do so.

Well, anyway, as usual, I am
InPeace,
InLove

<looks over shoulder> I guess you are addressing me! Thank you InLove.

No, it's not good for my humility work but I appreciate your words. It's good to be back and I will try not to hog the boards. Just excited to see so many interesting conversations going on.

peace,
lunamoth

Vimalakirti · 06-07-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The idea that seemed to stir up trouble, that only God has absolute power, is provacative (no kidding!). But if you believe, as Christians do, that all that you have and all that you are is not really yours, or his or theirs, but God's, then this makes sense. The problems start when you think that you have absolute (there's that word again) knowledge of God's will and in effect take that power and authority for yourself.

lunamoth

Hmm, I detect some careful reading on your part. But this leads you to some dangerously well-founded opinions, and where's the fun in that?!?

I agree that here is the nub of this world-shaking controversy. Also, earlier in your post, what you say about power "changing form" touches on another important point that I've also mentioned - the multivalent nature of the word. Power is used by people to refer to wonderfully pure notions like some élan vital, the holy spirit, the intangible suchness of reality, and so on.

The problem is again, as you point out, the confusion between these more spiritual notions on the one hand and good old fashioned will to power as it operates down here, in our messy neighbourhoods on the other, where many a street corner yahoo claims to be God's messenger. (BTW, according to Jung, people who mistake their own will for God's are victims of "mythic inflation".)

My piece was manifestly not about the Holy Spirit, Atman, the Ground of Being or any such high-toned notion of power. It was about the much less exalted temptations of power that you and I, frail beings, fall prey to.

No matter how holy & good we think we are, how in touch with the spirit, how positive our outlook, I submit that we should never be too comfortable, this side of our Transfiguration.

In the same way, no matter how worked out our metaphysical system, with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, with every angel in its place and all bases covered, I don't think we should ever forget that every metaphysic is also an ideology of power, and that every beneficent institution is also an institution of power, and that the minute we lose our suspicion of these powerful structures is the minute we land in deep doo-doo. Though I'm not sure I got the spelling right on doo-doo!

Cheers & Metta on this and every day.

lunamoth · 06-08-2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vimalakirti

In the same way, no matter how worked out our metaphysical system, with all the i's dotted and t's crossed, with every angel in its place and all bases covered, I don't think we should ever forget that every metaphysic is also an ideology of power, and that every beneficent institution is also an institution of power, and that the minute we lose our suspicion of these powerful structures is the minute we land in deep doo-doo. Though I'm not sure I got the spelling right on doo-doo!Cheers & Metta on this and every day.

I agree. I should have ended my post that the problems start when we try to take that absolute authority for ourselves, our church, our religion, our nation.

I'll have to start looking harder for the places where we disagree to keep it interesting.

lunamoth