Capital Punishment

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Geist

And do you think humans are capable of any level of justice at all?

Or do you believe that its human nature to be selfish and not care?

I believe humans are capable of justice, but not in the sense that it would result in killing others. Perhaps it will help to quote something that illuminates what I mean by this, the modern Druids Prayer:

Grant, O God, thy protection,
and in protection, strength,
and in strength, understanding,
and in understanding, knowledge,
and in knowledge, the knowledge of justice,
and in the knowledge of justice, the love of it,
and in the love of it, the love of all existences,
and in the love of all existences,
the love of God and all goodness.

Justice in this sense leads to love. What may appear to be justice may in fact be vengeance, and what may appear to be simply peace and love may in fact be justice. What is just? To forgive, to love, to make peace...

Even if those who have wronged us do not change, in true justice we ourselves change, transcending the pain of being hurt by others and coming closer to enlightenment. This is my belief, and it is based on forgiving some very deep wounds caused by others. As long as I sought retribution, my own spiritual growth was thwarted, and my pain increased, because I allowed the wounds to fester. When I realized that God was strong enough to allow me to forgive, and that forgiveness was truly just, I began the path of healing. In that came the love of all, the love of God, and the love of goodness. In forgiveness came a change in me, and a realization that no one could harm my soul.

True justice changes the wrongdoer, the victim, or both forever in a way that allows further spiritual growth. Killing others only weakens this process.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Geist,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Geist

And do you think humans are capable of any level of justice at all?

probably not. it may be possible for us to get close.. and probably as close as we'd need to retain social controls. it doesn't have to be perfect to work, at least for us human types.

Or do you believe that its human nature to be selfish and not care?

false dichotomy. justice does not equal unselfishness and caring and vice versa.

when justice is presented in this fashion it strikes me as a tally sheet and nothing more. justice is as fleeting as the dew drop in the morning sun, in my view. however, as there are several definitions of Justice.. perhaps you can explain what you view it to be so that i can see if we are talking about the same thing... which is possible that we are not.

[Bandit]

i really tried to put thought into this & i just cant say. at times it seems warranted & other times it does not.

it seems surving victims may have to live in fear if nothing is done. it seems the other side (say family of the offender) is tremendously put into fear if something is done or if nothing is done.

i honestly dont know the answer to this but it has been around since forever.

one thing i have noticed today, is, after someone takes a life or several lives, it seems they pull the trigger on themselves. There seems to be a rise in this action & type of thinking & it might be worth looking at for better understanding.

[path_of_one]

[QUOTE=Bandit]it seems surving victims may have to live in fear if nothing is done. it seems the other side (say family of the offender) is tremendously put into fear if something is done or if nothing is done.
QUOTE]

Good point, Bandit. I would say that capital punishment is not justice, but rather is a fear and/or vengeance based action.

I had a very traumatic thing happen to me, and my attacker is still out there (and is not in prison). I have gradually eased the fear through forgiveness and spiritual strength. I now count this suffering as a blessing, because it has been so tremendously difficult to overcome and has taught me to lean heavily on God and how to forgive in a way that would never have been possible had such a thing not happened to me. I am not advocating letting criminals run around in society, but rather suggesting (from a spiritual perspective) that killing people, even people who have killed others, does not truly solve the problems of fear and anger on the part of the victims. In my experience, only God (or enlightenment, if you prefer) can do that.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

when justice is presented in this fashion it strikes me as a tally sheet and nothing more. justice is as fleeting as the dew drop in the morning sun, in my view. however, as there are several definitions of Justice.. perhaps you can explain what you view it to be so that i can see if we are talking about the same thing... which is possible that we are not.

Justice is an illusion. It doesn't exist its like freedom it doesn't exist we are lead to belive it does when in actual fact it does not, we are lead around like sheep and nothng has changed from hundreds of years ago to now all thats changed is the rules have been flexed.

Originally Posted by path of one

In my experience, only God (or enlightenment, if you prefer) can do that.

Wheres God when your begging for your life at the end?

Hes not there to help you until its too late and you've died or maybe not even then!

Relgion is a form of control used to keep things the way the poitcians and other higher powered people use to control the masses.

[Faithfulservant]

How sad.. No wonder your so depressed.

[dauer]

To me it seems that the ones we end up giving the death penalty are really very sick in one way or another. We could research ways to rehabilitate them, although not necessarily with the future goal of reintigration into society.

If this is not possible, perhaps the death penalty can be viewed as a mercy killing for these people, like shooting Old Yeller.

I don't advocate this type of killing but I think the mental health of the typical death row inmate due to either nature or nurture or both should be taken into account. We assume too often that free will is granted with no strings attached.

I was watching a television show about a man who was a model citizen in a jail, had been given life for the murder of a person he thought was dealing drugs to his children. But he was really planning his escape the whole time. He had abducted the warden's wife and brainwashed her so that she believed he was actually a good person. And they lived together for many years before he was finally caught. In the interview I was watching he was very together and calm and almost seemed kind, but in a very sick way that was revolting. He smiled warmly the whole time, made references to Jesus and the apostles that were almost wholesome were it not for the fact that he was justifying his abduction of this woman, so this I think is what needs to be examined. How sick are the people we want to kill? Were they born that way? If not, how did they get that way? What obligation, if any, does society have to them?

And on another level, what preemptive services can we develop for identifying and working with these people so that mass murderers and other occupants of death roe appear less often in society?


Dauer

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Geist

Wheres God when your begging for your life at the end?

Hes not there to help you until its too late and you've died or maybe not even then!

Relgion is a form of control used to keep things the way the poitcians and other higher powered people use to control the masses.

I don't beg for my life. I have been in a situation where I could have been killed, and I stood up for myself. Fearing death results in spiritual stagnation. Fearing the loss of ego also results in spiritual stagnation, at least for me. I seek to transcend attachments to this life and even to myself. I do not worship God because I expect anything. I worship God because I was already given this moment right now, and that is an amazing gift.

I have faced death and continue to meditate on death, and I'm now thoroughly comfortable with it. Working with the dying in hospice helped me understand death a great deal, and I highly recommend it for others. Working with dying people was enlightening and they gave me gifts of wisdom for which I am very grateful.

I have also had some mystical experiences in which I experienced God and lost my body (my consciousness experienced non-corporeality). These were spontaneous experiences and not induced by meditation or whatever. I just see them as gifts. I can't wait to lose my body when I die. It was really fantastic and freeing, and I felt a transcendence and unity with God that is very difficult in ordinary physical life. I have had what some people think of as past life memories as well, and these were also spontaneous and began when I was very young. Who knows? Maybe reincarnation does happen. I choose to not attach too much to any one idea of the afterlife, because that just isn't the point in my spiritual path.

In short, not everyone considers death a bad thing. It is a transition, not an end. Furthermore, if it is an end, what difference does it make to us? We cease to exist. Either way, I don't see why I should fear it. Yes, the pain associated with death is unpleasant, but I've been sick and in pain before. It's just part of life and suffering contains its own lessons.

As for religion, I have no religion. I am not into organized religion, it just isn't something that helps me a lot in my spiritual path. I tried many different religious organizations out, but they just are not for me. I'm a very solitude and nature oriented person, and I feel closest to God when I am out in His Creation alone and in stillness. I am a deeply spiritual person, and I always have been, but my spirituality has nothing whatsoever to do with being controlled. In fact, my spiritual path has a lot to do with liberation from society and cultural bias, equality of all life, and taking personal responsibility for one's actions.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

How sad.. No wonder your so depressed.

Excuse me but you have never even spoken to me before now, you have no right to judge me in any way shape or form.

Originally Posted by daucer

To me it seems that the ones we end up giving the death penalty are really very sick in one way or another. We could research ways to rehabilitate them, although not necessarily with the future goal of reintigration into society.

Then whats the point in it at all?

Its a waist of time, money and will power. If they don't go back out into socity might aswell kill them.

[dauer]

There are other people who can't be a part of society for one reason or other like the severely mentally challenged. Would you advocate killing them off as well instead of taking care of them?

What do you feel each individual human owes to other humans, and what do you feel the collective of humanity owes to individual humans?

[Geist]

Originally Posted by dauer

There are other people who can't be a part of society for one reason or other like the severely mentally challenged. Would you advocate killing them off as well instead of taking care of them?

But we do though! I see mentally challenged people everywhere!

What do you feel each individual human owes to other humans, and what do you feel the collective of humanity owes to individual humans?

I don't belive a human owes another human anything.

[dauer]

But we do though! I see mentally challenged people everywhere!

I mean the severely mentally challenged, the ones who can't leave group homes and hospitals because they're so sick, who are supported primarily by the state.

I don't belive a human owes another human anything.

So if the world ran the way you wanted it to, what would be the prevailing ethic?

[Geist]

Originally Posted by dauer

So if the world ran the way you wanted it to, what would be the prevailing ethic?

i don't know i haven't ever thought of what my own morals are never mind the rest of the world.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Geist

Excuse me but you have never even spoken to me before now, you have no right to judge me in any way shape or form.

You're mistaken in thinking it was a judgement..I feel sorry for you. Even if I have not personally spoken with you Ive read most of your posts.. which are in depth into your private life and personal thoughts and opinions.. so close enough.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

You're mistaken in thinking it was a judgement..I feel sorry for you. Even if I have not personally spoken with you Ive read most of your posts.. which are in depth into your private life and personal thoughts and opinions.. so close enough.

I don't need your pity save it for someone who wants it. And it isn't close enough you bearly even know me you can't just place me in a specific place in your mind just because you've read a handful of my posts.