Capital Punishment

[wil]

Fully in agreement. Funny thing for me it took the execution of Timothy McVeigh to change my mind. And then the decision that he was not allowed to be buried in Arlington due to his crime...was icing on the cake.

Why when it has been studied and restudied and shown not to be a deterent do we do it. How can we (the US) have capitol punishment while playing the human rights card on other peoples? How can we possibly both convict people for murder and murder them?

Our system of appeals and protection on death row all of which I am in favor of if we are to continue to be barbarians, at least insure that we quit killing innocent people....all of this creates the cost of killing someone for a crime much more than incarcarating them for life.

I was dreaming the other night about a reward system in prison. The more you do, the better you do, the more amenities you recieve...make a mistake and back back down the ladder. To the point of having companies, factories where prisoners 'earn' a significant wage...most of which goes back to pay for their incarceration, and upgrades...and some to support their children. How many 'dead beat' dads are we also picking up the tab for...

Yes for rehabilitation of the prisoner.
Yes for rehabilitation of the system.
Yes for illiiminating the death penalty.

namaskar to all those incarcarated.

[Quahom1]

Williams was convicted of murdering 4 people in the 70s. He was convicted and his sentence was death. He had 24 years to make a difference for his life, and the life of others (which he did). But that does not excuse the four deaths he was convicted for.

It isn't revenge...It is justice. "I'm a changed man", doesn't fix the loss of life he caused.

He used the time he had left and benefitted children around the world. That is an honorable man. He went to his death, for taking the lives of four others.

Do I think this is right? I don't know. I can't supercede the judge or jury.

I would celebrate the good he did, during the time he had. I think he did good for alot of children...time will tell.

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[wil]

Do I think this is right? I don't know. I can't supercede the judge or jury.

I agree you are 100% correct but we are the people...and our state is one of those that has kept the death penalty, as is our country. As with all things if we have an opinion we elect law makers who tell judge and jury what they can and cannot do.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I agree you are 100% correct but we are the people...and our state is one of those that has kept the death penalty, as is our country. As with all things if we have an opinion we elect law makers who tell judge and jury what they can and cannot do.

So, You are asking is there a time for a death penalty? And is it worth it? I think it should be left on the books as an option. And I think it should be left to a jury of our peers to decide whether or not to invoke that option. I also think the Judge should listen and take counsel by the Jury of one's peers, but not lose sight of their own position as judge (ultimately).

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[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It isn't revenge...It is justice. "I'm a changed man", doesn't fix the loss of life he caused.

With all due respect, it's not justice; at the very least, it's injustice. Over the past several weeks, I have heard many people speaking out against this execution, several of them youths who attribute Williams, through the books he wrote, with reaching out to them and changing the course of their lives.

Justice in this case would be allowing this man to continue his good work and continue to redeem the mistakes in his life. In a written apology from 1997, Williams stated:

Originally Posted by Stanley "Tookie" Williams

I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life.

I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others.

I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.

It's not as simple as him saying, "I'm a changed man," either; his actions are speaking for him.

Killing him for killing others--even though he maintained that he was not guilty of the four murders throughout his life and in his death*--is in no way justice and may be seen as revenge and retribution. It is punishment in black and white, not rehabilitation.

*note that he did not maintain that he was innocent of crime. He acknowledged his wrongs, and again I quote from the written apology:

Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men...

...As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle.

"An eye for an eye" is, in my opinion, not an acceptable method of justice. Indeed, Williams' efforts to work towards peace and justice in the world were cut short by this misguided principle. Here is another quote from Williams' protocol for peace, which he wrote in an effort to reduce gang violence by peaceful reconciliation between warring gangs:

There are many reasons why warring factions should avoid this cycle of violence and retaliation, of lextalionis (eye for an eye): innocents are injured or killed, and the psychic and social scars on adults and children are handed down to next generations

I feel I should emphasize, to avoid the quote being misinterpreted in the context which I have presented it, that Williams is not speaking out for a stay of execution for himself in the above quote. It should also be noted that the Petition for Executive Clemency On behalf of Stanley Tookie Williams is not a letter that was written by Williams to Arnold Schwarzenegger saying, "I'm a changed man." The petition is a long document written by a third party. Attached to it are several quotes from pieces of mail that Williams received--not only from youth, but from teachers, prison workers, parents, and military officers.

Qualholm, you are correct in saying that "I'm a changed man," doesn't fix loss of life. Yet, Williams did much more than say, "I'm a changed man;" hell, I don't know if he ever even said that (do you?). What is obvious to me, though, is that he touched the lives of many people and changed them in a postive fashion. Executing him not only robbed an individual of his life, it also struck down a figure of redmeption and hope for many young people living hellish lives.

[wil]

Nice post Pathless, eloquently spoke...

Originally Posted by Quahom1
So, You are asking is there a time for a death penalty? And is it worth it? I think it should be left on the books as an option.

I'm always wondering what part of forgiveness people don't understand.

Of course it takes a while to 'get it' a friend whose sister was murdered by a nephew... if she was able to learn forgiveness....surely I can.

[I am free]

We have to ask if there is any purpose behind capital punishment. If it does not deter other people from crime then what is the purpose? Why?

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by I am free

We have to ask if there is any purpose behind capital punishment. If it does not deter other people from crime then what is the purpose? Why?

Well, on the plus side, it has a 100% success rate in preventing recidivism.

[wil]

Well, on the plus side, it has a 100% success rate in preventing recidivism.

I remember when that was my regular response..

But the fact is we continue to kill people that were innocent of the crime. I just heard Texas has destroyed all the DNA on past executions trying to eliminate future lawasuits for the above.

Capitol Punishment pure and simple is revenge and retribution. Life imprisonment is punishment, and successful in preventing recidivism...

There was a Senator from Nevada that proposed a bill that any prisoner that killed another prisoner should get a month off for good behaviour for saving the country money....I remember when I agreed with that as well.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I remember when that was my regular response..

But the fact is we continue to kill people that were innocent of the crime. I just heard Texas has destroyed all the DNA on past executions trying to eliminate future lawasuits for the above.

Capitol Punishment pure and simple is revenge and retribution. Life imprisonment is punishment, and successful in preventing recidivism...

There was a Senator from Nevada that proposed a bill that any prisoner that killed another prisoner should get a month off for good behaviour for saving the country money....I remember when I agreed with that as well.

Capital punishment is scriptural. And the reasons for such were sound. Still are.

What must be insured is the guilt of the "offender". That has been ramrodded in the past.

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[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by wil

Capitol Punishment pure and simple is revenge and retribution.

Isn't retribution much cheaper in itself, though?

I'm sure I read recently that capital punishment for criminal convictions was only introduced in the 1970's. Was very surprised by that. The impression is given of a far more established tradition in America.

[wil]

I'm sure I read recently that capital punishment for criminal convictions was only introduced in the 1970's. Was very surprised by that. The impression is given of a far more established tradition in America.

Don't know where that came from, we been hangin'em or firing squad for a while...electrocution and now the needle are relatively new...both of which as they were introduced were deemed to nice by those that say it isn't vengence.....

Our original country didn't have jails except to house people until the judge got to town, the sentence was either monetary, enslavement/indentured servant, some time at the pillary or stockade for public abuse and amusement, banishment, or death....death was an option from the beginning...and fairly swift back then.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Capital punishment is scriptural. And the reasons for such were sound. Still are.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If your point is that because capital punishment is scriptural, it makes a sound law, I disagree. This may not be the point you are trying to make; but I'm not sure what else you could be getting at with this short comment.

The founders of the United States of America were explict about separating church and state. Laws in this country are not based on scripture. Arguing for capital punishment because it is scriptural is ridiculous. One might as well argue that every male should be compulsorily circumcised under American law because it is Biblical law.

[I am free]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

Well, on the plus side, it has a 100% success rate in preventing recidivism.

I am sorry I dont understand. Are you saying that if a person is put to death he cannot go back to a life of crime? Wouldn't life imprisonment ensure that?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If your point is that because capital punishment is scriptural, it makes a sound law, I disagree. This may not be the point you are trying to make; but I'm not sure what else you could be getting at with this short comment.

The founders of the United States of America were explict about separating church and state. Laws in this country are not based on scripture. Arguing for capital punishment because it is scriptural is ridiculous. One might as well argue that every male should be compulsorily circumcised under American law because it is Biblical law.

The founders of the United States were explicit in ensuring church was not subjugated by state. That is all. Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the AniBaptists of New England is the only place where church being seperated from state was ever mentioned...and that was a private letter, and he was assuring the folks up north that the state would not subject them or anyone else to a state run religion...

There is nothing in the Constitution, the Declaration or the Articles that mention anything about the seperation of church and state.

The founding Laws in this country are founded on scripture, always have been.

And Captital punishment is scriptural, and counts today as much as it did 2000 years ago.

Just because others decide to interpret otherwise doesn't change facts.

Asked if the death penalty is viable in this country, 65% say yes. Ask between the choice of death penalty or life in prison without parole 56% still say death is proper.

These are facts, not my opinion.

v/r

Q