Capital Punishment

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

dont you just love southpark?! best tv show ever. i agree with the eye for an eye rule, it's completely lame. reason being; law does not give life, only christ gives life which is why he came to fulfill the law and said just love one another. being christian, if you are a real christian, puts you on a higher plane of rules that are voluntary and you give because you want to, you love because you want to, you forgive and show compassion, etc, all for the glory of god. having said that, i personally do not believe in death sentence. vengeance is the lords. i do believe in hard labor and life in prison, etc.. to keep society safe from harm.

the u.s. has done some really racist stuff, like kill indians and take their land, enslave africans and call them 2/3 person, buring so called witches, not allowing women to vote, segragation, discrimination, etc.. all they while saying we are a christian nation. however like the bible says we have to live with our transgressions and you reap what you sow. hopefully the u.s. continues to learn from its mistakes.

i think the u.s. was pretty bad growing up, and since then it has matured somewhat. its not perfect but its pretty darn good. the freedom here to be any religion allows christians to exercise their faith and for that reason the grace of god reaches out to many--here and abroad. the u.s. is also a strong ally of israel and of peace in the world. i dont know if the u.s. is in the bible anwhere, perhaps the u.s. is just a catalyst to something bigger.

Capital punishment is not a man dated law, whether you like it or not it is several thousand years old, and mandated by GOD. So take it up with GOD, and tell Him how much you hate it.

The US is very restrained in its use and authority of capital punishment. Very restrained. Let us consider the facts, unless that is something you will not look at.

[brucegdc]

The topic of Hammurabi's code has come up a couple of places here - "an eye for an eye". One thing that I haven't seen is recognition of the humane purpose of that law. Prior to Hammurabi, the law allowed for excessive punishment of an offender - you cause someone to lose an eye, you were punished with all sorts of stuff up to and including death. The purpose of the rule was to make retribution equivalent to the crime - or for Gilbert & Sullivan fans, "the punishment fit the crime" if you prefer.

As for the US system, I will merely note that it is founded primarily on UK jurisprudence and common law - and in fact British common law is accepted as a guideline for precedents (at least where there are no other precedents or written law available).

No government system is perfect, and representative democracy is a lousy way to run the show - but we haven't found anything better yet.

... Bruce

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Capital punishment is not a man dated law, whether you like it or not it is several thousand years old, and mandated by GOD. So take it up with GOD, and tell Him how much you hate it.

The US is very restrained in its use and authority of capital punishment. Very restrained. Let us consider the facts, unless that is something you will not look at.

god does indeed give man authority to rule. however as christians, we do not live under the law, rather we live by grace. and living by grace we are assured of the indwelling of the spirit, thus living on a higher plane, which all points to glorifying god and loving one another. any christian argument against is confusion of the old testament with the new, and denies christs' fulfillment of the laws.

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Not so certain of that. There has never been (in recorded history) a nation quite like that of the United States, nor the success of its form of government.

And so was said of Rome as well.

By all accounts, it should have died an early death...but something went wrong with the experiement, and it succeeded. One of the strongest factors of the success of the United States as a nation, is that the checks and balances built into the system always seem to bring it back to even keel. Sometimes take longer than other times, but the system and nation rights itself. America's greatest strengths are balance and tolerance.

Oh! You so Crazy!

Capital punishment is nothing new to the world or to nations, as it as been going on since the beginning of civilization. However the US has invoked such drastic punishment far far less than most other civilizations of comparative size, and only after lengthy, drawn out legal processes.

And since "seeing is believing", it would be best to monitor what the children are exposed to...

No, even the Bible, points out (if one interprets Revelation certain ways), that the US rise to power, was very different from any other major "world" power's rise. That our ways are different and our reverence for the sacredness of God is different.

And with that, I agree completely.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

god does indeed give man authority to rule. however as christians, we do not live under the law, rather we live by grace. and living by grace we are assured of the indwelling of the spirit, thus living on a higher plane, which all points to glorifying god and loving one another. any christian argument against is confusion of the old testament with the new, and denies christs' fulfillment of the laws.

That is incorrect. We of all people should live properly UNDER the LAW. No man is above the law...and in case we've forgotten - "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto God that which is God's".

The Lord was quite specific about our role in society. Lest we also forget, it is God that placed those in authority over us, there in the first place.

I'm not confused about Christ, the NT or the OT. I know my place...you and I are the law, only so far as we insist it be adhered to. Anything else is either anarchy or tyranny. Neither of which is acceptable by God.

v/r

Q

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Capital punishment is not a man dated law, whether you like it or not it is several thousand years old, and mandated by GOD. So take it up with GOD, and tell Him how much you hate it.

Oh, oh, mandated by GOD, I see.

Quahom, I say again, your idea of GOD is not my idea of God/Goddess. Capital punishment is not mandated by God, but by your concepetion of God as Big Poppa.

Take it up with GOD? The problem with that is that exoteric Christians and other hierarchical religions have always hidden their Big Poppa GODs away in the sky, and He and His Big Stone Throne with Lightning Bolts are only approachable by a select elite of ethereal saints in Heaven and vested interests on Earth.

My God and Goddess indwell in the heart of each person, and reach full expression in immedieate, sensory and sensual reality. They don't mandate laws, but express themselves uniquely yet universally through each person, animal, plant, stone, and clod of dirt.

Big Poppa and His followers attempt to browbeat the populace into submission, and cover over the immanent divinity inherent in the world. They call it dirty and point to the sky. Capital punishment is directly related to the power-over tactics of hierarchical culture. It is mandated by the GOD of those who would hoard power, which really means that it is a policy of those people, and a means of control.

Intimidation by authority is a poor--literally, spiritually impoverished--approach to the world. Subjugation of the natural order cannot, does not, and will not last.

song lyric from Ani DiFranco:
'up up up up up up points the spire of the steeple
but god's work isn't done by god, it's done by people'

[truthseeker]

Oooooooh Weeeee!!!!

[brucegdc]

Ooooh Weeee Indeed! This is straying into broad discussions on faith, not on the the original topic - capital punishment. The original question is whether Capital Punishment is a good idea (basically). Please keep to that direction, folks. Generic morality/religion discussions should be over in the comparative board, not Politics.

[Pathless]

Sorry, but I find it hard not to respond, even as the thread veers off topic, to what I feel are deeply-entrenched skewed values. Quahom bases his response on his religious and political beliefs, and I figure I have the right to counter his assumptions. When I read his posts, I feel as if he is applying his particular values in a very heavy-handed way to everyone who reads the thread, and that doesn't sit well with me.

Examples:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

First of all the UN is no bench mark by which to judge one's self by or even a nation by.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

If those in the middle east were smart, they'd let us do our thing, and build them back up. Then they'd take over and self govern as they see fit. But some people refuse to be smart. We on the other hand refuse to be terrorized.

That is the truth, basic and simple. History is quite prevelent in presenting this set of facts. That is also capital punishment on a large scale. Kill us, we kill back.

Unfortunately the ratio of deaths is very lopsided. For every coalition soldier killed, 1000 middle eastern people have been killed (and that does not include the innocent civilians)...such is war. Make no mistake, this is war. This is survival, America's survival.

We used to think our shores (the oceans), would protect us, and we could remain rather isolated...now we know better. The sleeping giant is once again awake, and ticked off...

Attacking the US was a "capital crime"...for which we will punish.

I'm sure some of you will disagree (as is your right). But majority rules, at least here it does.

Funny thing about America though. Back off, and it tends to back off as well...

Continue pushing...and we push right back, and then some...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Capital punishment has nothing to do with forgiveness. There is a price for everything. Justice demands that. Forgiveness does not negate the offense. That is where I think you are getting confused.

Man is incapable (in current state), to unconditionally love ALL. That means give up self (self preservation). Think about that...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Forgiveness is one thing...justice is another. Mercy is something totally different.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is incorrect. We of all people should live properly UNDER the LAW. No man is above the law...and in case we've forgotten - "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and unto God that which is God's".

The Lord was quite specific about our role in society. Lest we also forget, it is God that placed those in authority over us, there in the first place.

I'm not confused about Christ, the NT or the OT. I know my place...you and I are the law, only so far as we insist it be adhered to. Anything else is either anarchy or tyranny. Neither of which is acceptable by God.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is justice. It is rigid, codified, and objective. It is right or wrong, black or white (no shades of gray). There is no emotion in justice. If there was, it wouldn't be justice. And there is a stone tablet that defines all in every situation, at all times. It is called the ten commandments. And justice needs no compassion. There is no emotion involved in judgement over what is right and what is wrong.

I simply wear a uniform and carry out orders so that you can freely express your disdain, anytime you like. So in a way, I too believe in mercy, or at least in your rights...

Maybe I am reacting emotionally, but Quahom seems to think that it is his way or the highway. "You can disagree with me," he seems to be saying, "But that's irrelevant, because I'm right, so get used to it." Frankly, his arrogance pisses me off, and I don't feel I should have to sit meekly by while he dogmatically spouts his opinion. Quahom can believe whatever he wants to believe, and so can I, but he seems to operate on the assumption that his 'laws' apply to everyone else. Maybe it rubs me so wrong because, in my own way, I'm as stubborn as he is.

At any rate, maybe we should move our differences elsewhere, as Bruce suggests. I've been thinking of starting a thread on the concept of justice, and may do that.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Sorry, but I find it hard not to respond, even as the thread veers off topic, to what I feel are deeply-entrenched skewed values. Quahom bases his response on his religious and political beliefs, and I figure I have the right to counter his assumptions. When I read his posts, I feel as if he is applying his particular values in a very heavy-handed way to everyone who reads the thread, and that doesn't sit well with me...

...Maybe I am reacting emotionally, but Quahom seems to think that it is his way or the highway. "You can disagree with me," he seems to be saying, "But that's irrelevant, because I'm right, so get used to it." Frankly, his arrogance pisses me off, and I don't feel I should have to sit meekly by while he dogmatically spouts his opinion. Quahom can believe whatever he wants to believe, and so can I, but he seems to operate on the assumption that his 'laws' apply to everyone else. Maybe it rubs me so wrong because, in my own way, I'm as stubborn as he is...

guess it got your attention...

v/r

Q

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

guess it got your attention...

Yes.

[wil]

Given that the discussion is politics and society...and the topic is capitol punishment...don't rightly see how we will discuss it without morality and religion slipping in especially at this website...

And I think we've come to an agreement of the obvious....capitol punishment does work for one person...no recidivism for the one 'punished'.

However the realities are, that as long as our gov't continues to kill, then it gives others the notion that killing is ok. Do as I say not as I do...did it ever work for any of us as a kid?

It has been said we are to obey the law...and God says man makes the law. Well I say it is time to change the law. Quit being barbaric, and abolish capitol punishment. Fiscally it is irresponsible, it costs more in litigation and whatnot to kill a mass murderer than it does to incarcerate him for life. Others would say yes change the law, once they are convicted take them out back and shoot them....well even with all our appeals we've murdered many a man innocent of the crime he was convicted for, if justice is our goal, that is not the answer.

It is beginning to sound to me like it is not justice, it isn't even vengence or retribution that some of those that seek the death penalty wish for, it is some personal satisfaction...some vicarious thrill of being part of that system.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Given that the discussion is politics and society...and the topic is capitol punishment...don't rightly see how we will discuss it without morality and religion slipping in especially at this website...

And I think we've come to an agreement of the obvious....capitol punishment does work for one person...no recidivism for the one 'punished'.

However the realities are, that as long as our gov't continues to kill, then it gives others the notion that killing is ok. Do as I say not as I do...did it ever work for any of us as a kid?

It has been said we are to obey the law...and God says man makes the law. Well I say it is time to change the law. Quit being barbaric, and abolish capitol punishment. Fiscally it is irresponsible, it costs more in litigation and whatnot to kill a mass murderer than it does to incarcerate him for life. Others would say yes change the law, once they are convicted take them out back and shoot them....well even with all our appeals we've murdered many a man innocent of the crime he was convicted for, if justice is our goal, that is not the answer.

It is beginning to sound to me like it is not justice, it isn't even vengence or retribution that some of those that seek the death penalty wish for, it is some personal satisfaction...some vicarious thrill of being part of that system.

Interesting, You actually think capital punishment is considered a game...by some...I submit it is reality, and it isn't going to go away, just because some wish to slough it off. Tajasi doesn't have the issue...neither do I...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Interesting, You actually think capital punishment is considered a game...by some...I submit it is reality, and it isn't going to go away, just because some wish to slough it off. Tajasi doesn't have the issue...neither do I...

A game? No, I think it murder. Pre-meditated murder. A hate crime even.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

A game? No, I think it murder. Pre-meditated murder. A hate crime even.

Ok, that's what you think of it.

v/r

Q