Capital Punishment

[I, Brian]

I can certainly associate with that. Especially galling when in the mid-90's the British government (surprisingly, a Conservative one) was awarding foreign holidays to prisoners - on the grounds that it showed them what they could achieve on the straight and narrow. Incredible, really.

And you're quite right - a particular and sometimes obscured point at the heart of this whole debate is one of penal reform. The punishment has to be seen to fit the crime. Capital punishment is seen as an easy way to implement that.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

Sounds like the issue of Capital Punishment should really be penal reform. Reminds me of a time many years ago now when the PM of Canada implemented overnight conjugal visits for prisoners, in relatively nice accomodation (such as you describe). The media and public did not take kindly to that - especially when it was publicized that the prisoners were getting steak every Friday as well - better than I was eating at the time, being right out of college and trying to budget in an apartment of my own. I believe that conditions have changed somewhat since, but have no intention of finding out for myself.

I have never spent one night in prison. But I think that in a prison sentence specially of the chained gang labor kind, such a set-up would be most propitious for reducing fat and sliming down -- except for the cruelty of prison staff and sadism of fellow inmates. But make that temporary for people who like to enjoy the fat trimming opportunity there. No, I am not a fat guy; but people are pointing out that millions are spent by fat people to reduce their girth, but futiely mostly. The chained gang labor prison, that's failsafe.

Honestly, I would opt for early retirement in a jail detention compound: one gets free board and lodging, medical care. laundry taken care of, and conjugal or girlfriend visits in privacy to boot. There must be also ample Internet access as there are library facilities. I read somewhere that there are resident psychiatrist and philosopher in big prison complex. How's that for on-hand in-person direct chat?

With my wife's consent I would like to apply for prison detention to volunteer my service of companionship to convict prisoners. Brothers and sisters in this forum, please let me know of such employment opportunities, token salary is more than enough. One condition, no sadistic prison staff and guaranteed protection from similar inmates.

Susma Rio Sep

[Fern]

I am morally opposed to Capital Pusishment. Howevr, even if I take my emotions out of the equation, I have this concern... The justice system in the US is very good - but by no means perfect. If one of my sons were accused of a murder they did not commit & convicted and sentenced to life in prison, then years later they were proved innocent, they would be able to walk away from jail & although their life may not ever be what it would have been had the horrible mistake not been made to begin with, the fact remains that they would still have a life. Now if my child was convicted & sentenced to death, & it was later found that he was innocent, then his life is gone - my child would not have any other chances... That is a situation that I do not believe anyone should have to go through. Some may say that this situation does not happen a lot - and maybe not (I don't really know). However, it only has to happen to you or someone you love once for it to appear flawed...

I find that if the event is personalized, that one is less likely to vote for things which, if happened to them or their family, would be absolutely devastating & ir-reversible. I look at many things that way - war for instance... I can't help but wonder if Bush would have attacked Iraq if his daughters were in true danger of being killed for no other reason than 'being at the wrong place at the wrong time'. Controversy becomes very clear for me when I think "what would I do if it were my child in harms way?"... but that's another post....

Fern

[Anzac]

Everyone sits round a table and cries "justice; justice!" - to me the concept of justice died a long time ago.

In fundamentalist Islam people are mutliated and executed for crimes, in traditional Christianity (both original protestantism and catholicism) the same happened. Is this justice and still the same? Religion aside, is locking someone up carrying justice. Is someone living in better conditions justice?

To me you can't actually carry justice across the board until their is social and political justice carried out. For instance, the rich buy their way to bail on forty million dollars whereas the poor rot in prison because they can't afford it. Criminals are seen and treated as second class citizens, whether that is stealing 70 million dollars in fraud of killing people in cold blood. In my eyes there is no use trying to carry justice in that way when their is no justice in the real world - it's ultimate hypocrisy.

For there to be real justice (killing Saddam Hussain compared to those locked away in Guantanamo bay...) then there needs to be a real sense of it - not blood lust and vengance. People need to sit down and actually set the facts straight. Recently there have been crimes where people have been found guilty by the media before they are put on trial - is this justice? To me the concept is either foreign or dead at present and so cannot be treated as a certainty. This is yet another reason why killing someone for murder is as hypocritical as giving "aid" to other nations in the form of national debt.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Capital punishment should be replaced by a fate worse than death, of course not consisting in physical pain but in psychological discomfort, like shame and embarrassment.

Since the convict deserving of capital punishment would not live peaceably in a civilized society, then he should be accorded no respect otherwise universally due to any human.

My suggestion: put him to hard labor or very demeaning menial jobs like cleaning public bathrooms, day in and out, before everyone’s gaze, in a prisoner's uniform, with the inscription of his crime.


To Anzac, I agree with your sentiment completely. But the rule of the powerfully ruthless and self-righteously megalomaniacs like Bush and his thugs (I take that back), is more and more on the decline. Observe the abolition of slavery in the U.S., and now equal access to everything for blacks there, and even compensating access.

Didn’t the UN withhold its go-signal to the U.S. for its unjust war on Iraq? What Iraqis wanted was for the U.S. to help them to topple Saddam themselves; but Bush and company preferred for their own interests to invade and occupy Iraq.

And the whole civilized world, except for mercenary politicians, condemn the U.S. or more properly Bush and his plutocratic buddies.

Susma Rio Sep

[Anzac]

Surely the virtue here is forgiveness? The ability to look the person in the eye who has broken the law and forgive them is an incredible thing that "civilized" people retain. It is no better for someone to have committed a crime and then be subjected to public and ritual humiliation - isn't this somehow breaching the rights of humans?

The the question is placed - why treat them with humanity when they don't respond with the same? Is it honestly humane for me to wear designer labels made by people being paid sweet nothing and charged more than sufficient money so the rich can get richer and the poor can get poorer? I don't believe we're in any position to deem what is and isn't civilized until we have a society that is.

In response to the meglomaniacs - I think they're much more on the increase rather than the decrease. Not just in the US - but globally. Look at those "civilzed" western countries and the parties in power. Look at the global dictatorships that continue because the country isn't fortunate enough to have enough oil to bribe the smoking gun. Does anyone take notice? Those who have the potential to get any sort of power grab it and capitalise on it and it's seen as acceptable. It's the meglomaniacs that are driving to keep their power and do anything to keep it as such.

Back on topic (I say that now...) - I see subjecting someone to ritual humiliation as being equally, if not more inhumane than killing them (but is it murder in war?). Remember criminals are not second class citizens - they are people as everyone else is. Because they go outside of society doesn't mean they should be eternally punished. In my opinion there shouldn't be a need to commit a crime if people actually functioned in some form of civilized manner and so in turn we needn't think of a new uncivilized way to torment them.

[dasant]

Many people believe in an eye for an eye. But the whole thing that is wrong with this philosophy is the simple fact that it’s doing nothing more then perpetuating the same violent acts. This philosophy is why many American’s choose to be pro-death penalty.

‘‘Eye for an eye would leave the world blind’’ –Gondii. That simple quote represents all that is wrong with the eye for an eye theory. It will blind us to the fact that the crime, murder is wrong. For what is our government doing directly in return, killing them. Committing the same act, putting the murderer to death, for putting someone else to death. This proves that the death penalty is flawed and clearly hypocritical.

Does our country or does it not, give us the right to ‘‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’’. If our government is to murder any of it’s citizens, it is taking away our right to life. Does this whole death penalty thing sound a bit un-constitutional?

Another thing to look at is the fact that it costs much more to put people do death. Making the argument that putting them in for life is more costly. If you actually look at the facts it costs roughly 600,000 to put them in for life, and 2.3 million to death. The fact being you must go through many trials, and that’s where it cost starts adding up.

The prisoners can get life without prowl furthering that they are not allowed to get out of jail. Making me all the more anti-death penalty.