Capitalism is Not working

Tao_Equus · 07-17-2007, 06:30 PM

Capitalism to a westerner like myself is almost a holy word. An "untouchable" given that only seems to have one alternative, the consistent failure that is communism. It seems that even here the consensus I have seen is that Capitalism is accepted as the only way. This is despite in every wholly capitalistic country we see a steady growing disparity between rich and poor and that being poor has attached to its hardships the steady disenfranchisement of equal rights. For example in the US an ambulance will not take you to hospital unless it knows you have insurance.

The poor are forced to consume trashy products, consume foodstuffs that make them sick, pay more for their utility services and even pay more taxes than the Gods of Capitalism. Capitalism in essence has an in-built discrimination toward social status and intelligence within a capitalist nation. These nations in turn foster corrupt structures throughout the world to maintain inward cash flow either as resources or cash. Yet they paint a picture, a lie, of aid donations etc to help these poor people they consistently rape.

So I say Capitalism is not working. I say that the masses in the "west" are lured into complacency based on unnecessary consumerism that provides selfish short term "fix" to a deliberately manipulated psyche. We are dumbed down to spend spend and when we run out of cash to borrow more so that we can spend some more. Meanwhile in our modern ghettoes and trailer parks people struggle to find food and sell organs to pay for the drugs to keep Mummy alive. In distant nations 1000's die daily to keep our arms industries paying healthy dividends to shareholders and the natural resources these countries posses are taken by stealth to support our unsustainable profligacy.

Capitalism only serves the wealthy. The class under them is paying debt till they die. The class under them cannot afford to live. The class under them are distant people that dont speak english and are only so much TV content. They do not even figure. So how is Capitalism a success? Am I unduly negative? Anybody have any ideas on an alternative system?

I think this is perhaps one of the most important questions facing people today yet I so rarely hear it posited. Personally I would make it illegal to posses shares in a company you do not in some way work for. I would put a cap on personal wealth. I would insure that World Bank Loans were for the genuine benefit of the receiving nation and not the receiver of raw materials. And that UN directives were just that.

I am sickened. truly truly sickened by the growing disparity I see around me. But I am a small uneducated man. Is there a glimmer of hope I have missed? A counter-strategy to which I can offer my support? I am alas in the dark and thoroughly despondent for I see no counter to this unchallenged lie that Capitalism works.

Your thoughts please.

tao

LeoSalinas22 · 07-17-2007, 07:02 PM

i know what you mean, tao, by your post, but the fact is that it is going to get alot worse before it gets better. you say that capitalism isn't working. it never has and it never will. money is the root of all evil. it eats at you from the inside out. we don't need money but that is the illusion that alot of people on this planet have. everything we need is on the earth and for free, nonetheless! but if people want money and possessions, well, by golly let them have it. i don't care for money and possessions, myself. if it were up to me i would walk the earth, like kane in kung fu. but you make an excellent post, my friend and you took the words right out of my mouth. thanks.

Tao_Equus · 07-17-2007, 07:21 PM

Thanks for your supportive words Leo. Sometimes thoughts of what i have posted really depress me. Not really for me but for the legacy I leave my children. and their children. Capitalism is built on the notion of infinite growth. In a world of finite resources it is clearly unsustainable. It is of genuine concern to me.

Tao

Pathless · 07-17-2007, 07:24 PM

Yes, I'll drink to that!!! And indeed, and how!! Whoooo-Dawgy! Nice rallying cry.

I envision decentralization. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Take the technology we have now, of course modified and stripped down in some sense because of resource availability, and decentralize to the point of small, viable, self-sustaining communites. I am not advocating tribalism, necessarily; that word often has negative connotations. What I do think might work is a network of communities, each sustainable and self-sufficient to whatever extent is possible, and each coopearting with the surrounding communities to create and sustain viable economies of real goods, not money. Coperation and co-creation are, I believe, essential to where humanity has got to go.

Tao_Equus · 07-17-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathless

Yes, I'll drink to that!!! And indeed, and how!! Whoooo-Dawgy! Nice rallying cry.

I envision decentralization. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Take the technology we have now, of course modified and stripped down in some sense because of resource availability, and decentralize to the point of small, viable, self-sustaining communites. I am not advocating tribalism, necessarily; that word often has negative connotations. What I do think might work is a network of communities, each sustainable and self-sufficient to whatever extent is possible, and each coopearting with the surrounding communities to create and sustain viable economies of real goods, not money. Coperation and co-creation are, I believe, essential to where humanity has got to go.

Almost the antithesis of current globalist trends and rhetoric. I think local sustainability is a key to long term survival too. Thank you for posting.

Tao

ardenz · 07-17-2007, 07:33 PM

Hi Tao,

I've been feeling like this lately, too. Fed up with the lot of it ...going around angry in our noisy cars, honking those who aren't going fast enough. Aisles and aisles of same-ish products on the supermarket shelves crying "buy me" "buy me". Advertising is disgusting - especially targetting children and they are getting fatter in our badly fed western societies. A city in Brazil recently banned all advertising - Sao Paulo Boing Boing: Sao Paulo goes advertising-free

Capitalism is who over dies with the most wins and f**k everyone and everything else

Robert Kennedy Junior made a speech recently at the Live Earth event: YouTube - RFK JR -- Live Earth

Ard

Tao_Equus · 07-17-2007, 07:46 PM

Ty for that inspirational link Ardenz.

What he said about holding to account these corporations that hold self interest and profit over the needs of wider humanity as Traitorous is a path the peoples of this amazing orb adrift in the improbable emptiness of hostile space need to fully embrace. We have no plan B. We have one world to work with. Its time greed, especially corporate greed, is seen as a crime against humanity.

Tao

LeoSalinas22 · 07-17-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathless

Yes, I'll drink to that!!! And indeed, and how!! Whoooo-Dawgy! Nice rallying cry.

I envision decentralization. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Take the technology we have now, of course modified and stripped down in some sense because of resource availability, and decentralize to the point of small, viable, self-sustaining communites. I am not advocating tribalism, necessarily; that word often has negative connotations. What I do think might work is a network of communities, each sustainable and self-sufficient to whatever extent is possible, and each coopearting with the surrounding communities to create and sustain viable economies of real goods, not money. Coperation and co-creation are, I believe, essential to where humanity has got to go.

hi pathless,
so what you are saying is that we should still place all our resources and faith in this world and man? correct me if i am wrong but we have been doing that for ages now and look at where we are still. man is not going to make things better. i myself have lost faith in us. this world is just so dissappointing. it just isn't getting better. we are just getting worst despite our state of the art equipment and advanced medicine and sciences. it isn't working and our kids suffer for it.

Pathless · 07-17-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hi pathless,
so what you are saying is that we should still place all our resources and faith in this world and man? correct me if i am wrong but we have been doing that for ages now and look at where we are still. man is not going to make things better. i myself have lost faith in us. this world is just so dissappointing. it just isn't getting better. we are just getting worst despite our state of the art equipment and advanced medicine and sciences. it isn't working and our kids suffer for it.

We're all we've got, though. Are you implying that *GOD* is going to reach down and save us?? Look, I'm no atheist or agnostic. God works through people. It is alright to sit around and wail, grieve, and gnash the teeth for however long you need to, I have faith that we will work through this, or at least some of us. "The meek shall inherit the Earth," remember?

History is a farce anyways. It was doomed from the beginning, that was its whole point. Forgive me if I seem obscure, but don't you think it is about time people started living without so much purpose, so many goals? The big mess of history has done its job very well, made us forget the moment. Yet history is not all there is to human life on this Earth. It is a delusion and only one way of looking at life. What about so many indigenous cultures who never needed to record history in the compulsive way that the Anglo-Saxon has?

History is a trap, an illusion. We are inside a cage philosophizing about freedom, so enarmored of all we have built and all of our own mastubatory musings that we refuse to open the door and enjoy the day outside.

Which is exactly what I'm gonig to do right now.

wil · 07-17-2007, 08:12 PM

arrgghhh...money is not the root of all evil...the love of money is!!!

hoarding, stealing, coveting wealth....that is the root of all evil...

gold fever, IRA envy...capitalism works...you just need to insure the rich aren't relegating the tax system and the poor don't have an entitlement program which makes them never get off their collective arse and do something productive.

watcha gonna do, socialism? communism? return to dictatorships? supply and demand works when something is too expensive we find a way around it...

I do have a friend who feels he has a solution...the age of Re-Creation (recreation) is upon us due to the advances in technology according to him.

But if he is right it is Capitalism that has brought us to this point...without it we'd all be plowing the land by hand and eeking out an existence at the whims of feudal lords...capitalism breeds entrepreneurial and enterprising folks that want to get ahead....and yes it is fed by the poor who buy lottery tickets, pull slot machines, and watch sports on television...all of which turns into adults who play kids games being paid millions each year while the poor sot paying an hours wages for a beer and hot dog complains and cheers for them...yes he complains, but yes he still pays...and yes he still cheers....go figure.

Tao_Equus · 07-17-2007, 08:34 PM

Your Recreation buddy serves up many a palatable dish to my starved intellect. Tho many of his ideas are not new to me. In truth we do have the technological ability to reduce the average working week to a handful of hours with a cashless as you need system. this is a fact. who prevents its realisation? no prizes for correct answers.

ardenz · 07-17-2007, 08:51 PM

I don't know Wil......

Quote:

gold fever, IRA envy...capitalism works...you just need to insure the rich aren't relegating the tax system and the poor don't have an entitlement program which makes them never get off their collective arse and do something productive.

watcha gonna do, socialism? communism? return to dictatorships? supply and demand works when something is too expensive we find a way around it...

...this, our early 21st century capitilst society which is spreading its corporate fingers all over the globe sucking out resources and spewing out much useless crap for us to buy...is based on oil...transport, food (pesticides), communications, the computers we use, I could go on......this oil age is a "blip" and we sure are using it up and making a mess as we do so.

Quote:

supply and demand works when something is too expensive we find a way around it...

....like get it made by child labour, or China where their human rights and working hours are suspect. Or then local jobs are lost because things can be made cheaper somewhere else and the only new jobs are in the service sector, or in building as this is our other obsession in the West....building and buying stuff. Lets just build on the whole planet, sell it off.

OK it works ....for now....but what about our children and grandchildren and future generations ...what will they think of us "the wasters". And those "poor people" who don't work much, at least they are probably using less resources.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with "Live Earth " and rich pop stars like Madonna not exactly giving a good example ... how much is her heating bill ?.

But Robert Kennedy's speech ...way hey ! Fab !

wil · 07-17-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardenz

...this oil age is a "blip" and we sure are using it up and making a mess as we do so.

On the other hand, I do have a problem with "Live Earth " and rich pop stars like Madonna not exactly giving a good example ... how much is her heating bill ?.

oh yeah!! I love Gore, who controls 500 million in oil stocks (it was only 200 million when he ran for Prez...he's doing well) tells us about global warming...or millionaires like Ted Kennedy complaining about wind farms spoiling his ocean views. Or Ted Turner who promised a billion to the UN but has yet to pay...there are millions of millionaire Democrats who aren't paying any extra to fund those social services they play word games about. It is a joke.

As for this 'oil age' yes it will end....but when is anyone's guess. In the 60's they told us we would run out in the 80's...every time we do a new analysis the date continues to extend out farther...one is they keep finding more oil...we aren't even sure if the earth is done making oil yet...it seems still in production mode...second with the price of oil today and the available technology we can extract where before it wasn't profitable (Canadian shale fields for example)... third if we quit using oil and quit sucking the levels down will they return to where they were before?? (oil in southern California and the south seeping out of the ground)

All quite the conundrum....the crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe!

Impqueen · 07-17-2007, 09:20 PM

Y'know I'd love to live in the hills, growing my own food, buying locally produced necessaries, like clothes etc, maybe in some sort of barter system. Pants for carrots..... That would be great. But I'd also like to be a tree.

And if I lived in this commune would I be able to get broadband?

Can we really criticise those who are famous, have the same ideals we do, yet don't live up to them either? We should all be doing more about it, you, me and Madonna. I think we all need to look to our own lives first....

Market forces can change things. We can say 'no I will not buy wood that isn't sustainably grown' and 'I will not buy from companies that use child labour' and 'I will not buy beans shipped in from half way across the world'. But they change things slowly, and those with little money can't take part in the process because they have to buy the cheapest beans. Can those forces change enough, quickly enough?

Frankly I think there are way too many of us.

wil · 07-17-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Impqueen

And if I lived in this commune would I be able to get broadband?

Can we really criticise those who are famous, have the same ideals we do, yet don't live up to them either? We should all be doing more about it, you, me and Madonna. I think we all need to look to our own lives first....

Namaste and Amen Queenie!

Be the change you wish to see in the world...

damn the torpedoes but don't take down the net!