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Old 08-09-2007, 08:06 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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It's funny that the previous generations did not even know that there was a mathematical structure in the Koran. Its thanks to the computer that its been realized.
Sometimes information about texts is forgotten. And if it really is of Divine origin, why give a proof that's so difficult to decipher and seems to many so much like coincidence or intentional human activity? Why not create a very obvious proof that would be clear to everyone from the moment the text was received? I'd expect more from an omnipotent, omniscient Deity.
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:25 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by dauer View Post
Sometimes information about texts is forgotten. And if it really is of Divine origin, why give a proof that's so difficult to decipher and seems to many so much like coincidence or intentional human activity? Why not create a very obvious proof that would be clear to everyone from the moment the text was received? I'd expect more from an omnipotent, omniscient Deity.
Its beyond a coincidence. Im all most through verifying more evidences, will also be indisputable. Heres a few more for you to consider; The word ''day'' is mentioned in the Al-Koran 365 times. The word ''Month'' is mentioned in the Koran 12 times. All the evidences are pointing towards a perfect creator of the universe, one would expect a perfect well balanced book, from such a perfect being. Im not here to sell Islam, Im here to see if someone can produce something the Koran informs us you can't. So, the only way to prove the Koran wrong is to produce a similar verse?
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

Goodyman,

you started this thread with a deceit. I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves. Nobody will ever convince you of anything, regardless of the veracity of their argument, because your mind is already set. You sell yourself...and your "faith"..short.

Tao
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by dauer View Post
Goodyman,

I don't know what you mean by verify. You mean to show that it's there or to show that it's True? I don't study these types of things. I've no interest in convincing myself that I've found Truth in a finite patriarchal text.
Dauer.

Do me a favour? please click on your link you proveded for me and show me a verse which is mathematically calculated? I will analyze it!


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So in other words, in a critical examination of a Muslim claim, you only accept those who believe the claim to begin with as valid sources?

One of the important things that comes up in a critical analysis of Rashid Khalifa's work is that he found a sura that doesn't go along with the pattern. But because he believed so strongly in the significance of the number 19 he altered it.
Rashid Khalifa rejected two verses from the Al-Koran based only on a weak Hadith.

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There is no submitter's forum here, and you did not post this under Islam. It's under Abrahamic religion. Even if it were posted under Islam, the submitters are a group with some relationship to Islam. There's no reason I can see why that topic of inquiry is either invalid or irrelevant. If this truly has no bearing on the matter please demonstrate so.
You are wondering off topic. You may go back to my post and check it out carefully, if you have any problems with it, ask me, and I will claify. Its all verifiable? Produce a verse like it? It's a simple question give me a simple answer?
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:52 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by Tao_Equus View Post
Goodyman,

you started this thread with a deceit. I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves. Nobody will ever convince you of anything, regardless of the veracity of their argument, because your mind is already set. You sell yourself...and your "faith"..short.
"attack the post, not the poster".
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:57 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

goodyman,

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Do me a favour? please click on your link you proveded for me and show me a verse which is mathematically calculated? I will analyze it!
The project he's working on isn't about the structure of one single verse. He's looking for structures within the entire language, which in Judaism is traditionally understood not only to be from G!d, but also to be something like the building blocks of creation. As I said before, the calculator he designed went bonkers and he's only just picked up the project again. I think he may be rewriting it in another computer language.

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Rashid Khalifa rejected two verses from the Al-Koran based only on a weak Hadith.
According to what I've read, the links I provided for you his primary reason for rejecting the verses was because they don't fit the patterns of 19's.

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You are wondering off topic. You may go back to my post and check it out carefully, if you have any problems with it, ask me, and I will claify. Its all verifiable? Produce a verse like it? It's a simple question gives me a simple answer?
I'm not off-topic at all. You're attempting to keep the critical analysis of these verses according to a very specific method and rejecting any criticism of that method and sources of information that aren't being peddled by those who already believe in its Truth. When you present something in such a manner, you should expect criticism from those who disagree with you. I'm really not surprised that I'm not the only one who saw ulterior motives from you and is still a little suspicious.

What you're doing would be like a person saying to you, "Prove to me that the bible is written by man instead of being of Divine origin. You can only use sources of people who believe it's Divine and you can only use their methodology. If you present biblical criticism then it's not valid and it's off-topic."

Last edited by dauer; 08-09-2007 at 09:50 PM. Reason: last line of last paragraph didn't read as I intended
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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First of all the Q'uran was not compiled by Muhammad himself. In his time it was a collection of writings on various mediums held in many places. And he left no instruction as to the order of compilation on the finished article.
Although Quran wasent compiled in his life time, he did leave intruction regarding the placement of revelations. After each revelation he would tell the writers that "this verse is to be pput in that surah which discusses this topic". Quran was also recited 5 times a day in congregetion.

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Secondly the number 19 already had mathematical significance to the mathematicians of that era and region. It is clear that they were responsible for fitting the Q'uran around the numerical values we see today. We can prove this as there are several fragments of texts that have been found that do not support this so called divine rule and clearly indicate that the Q'uran was chopped to bits and reassembled several times to achieve what we see today. The mathematicians of that time and region were the greatest in the world and if it were not for them much of the classical science we have today would have been lost. But it is not a divine numerical code, its a clever human one.
Well that was something new to me. Quran was compiled 1 year after Prophet Muhammad's death & diacritical marks were added 30 years later (for non-arabs). If you are talking about Arabs, they were mostly interested in poetry & warfare. If you mean Greeks, the Arab-Greek connection came long time after the compilation, & that too was mostly philosophical, not mathematical. Mathematics actually entered in Islamic territories from India. Arabic numerals are still called "Indinan numerals" in Arabic. And maths definitely is considered holy in India. But that too, was like 400 years later.
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:02 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

Tao,

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I find those that are willing to deceive others are equally capable of deceiving themselves.
I find that's very true. I think it's something we all probably do at some times.
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:11 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by goodyman View Post
"attack the post, not the poster".
If you had been honest at the start I would have no need to say what I have said. I have attacked your assumptions. I am sorry that you cannot see that.

Tao
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by dauer View Post
Tao,



I find that's very true. I think it's something we all probably do at some times.
Invariably I would think Trick is to be smart enough to realise it.
If we could still have signatures here mine might be " I reserve the right to be a hypocrite".

Tao
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:23 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by Muslimwoman View Post
assalamaleykum Goodyman

The other problem I have with taking this challenge out of the arabic language is the problem with transliteration, which is only a representation and not universal. We are aware that arabic experts have spent centuries trying to take up this challenge and of course failing, so I doubt that anyone on this forum is going to find the key.
Walikum Aslam, Sister.

You are correct, it would be wrong to take the challenge out off the arabic language. Most members on this forum are non-arabic, so they would not even be able to try and compse a verse which is similar. I'll be honest with you, I have tried my utmost to compose a simple four word sentence about any subject. I failed.

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As Dauer mentioned the Bible does apparently contain a code, which I believe is in the form of cryptography rather than purely mathematical. It is my understanding that this was found in the original Hebrew, not a translation. Maybe Dauer can enlighten us on this?

Salaam
I understand what you are are saying. Muslims believe many parts of the bible are the word of God. Yes, the bible would carry a hall mark, but not in a translation. Same with the Jewish scripture.
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:31 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by Tao_Equus View Post
If you had been honest at the start I would have no need to say what I have said. I have attacked your assumptions. I am sorry that you cannot see that.

Tao
Tao_Equus.

Im going to put you on the spot and ask you to prove your claim for calling me deceitful?
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:47 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by dauer View Post
goodyman,

The project he's working on isn't about the structure of one single verse. He's looking for structures within the entire language, which in Judaism is traditionally understood not only to be from G!d, but also to be something like the building blocks of creation. As I said before, the calculator he designed went bonkers and he's only just picked up the project again. I think he may be rewriting it in another computer language.
Bring the verse my friend?

According to what I've read, the links I provided for you his primary reason for rejecting the verses was because they don't fit the patterns of 19's.[/QUOTE]

You were calling the verses ''suras'' in your previous post.

[/QUOTE]I'm not off-topic at all. You're attempting to keep the critical analysis of these verses according to a very specific method and rejecting any criticism of that method and sources of information that aren't being peddled by those who already believe in its Truth. When you present something in such a manner, you should expect criticism from those who disagree with you. I'm really not surprised that I'm not the only one who saw ulterior motives from you and is still a little suspicious.[/QUOTE]

You can be as suspicious as you like, the facts don't go away. Produce a sura like it?

In his “Appendix 24,” Rashad Khalifa writes:

“Nineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. . . .

“This committee was supervised by `Uthman Ibn `Affaan, `Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Ka`ab, `Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Sa`eed Ibn Al-`Aas, and `Abdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. . . .

“The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. ONE OF THE SCRIBES SUGGESTED ADDING A COUPLE OF VERSES TO HONOR THE PROPHET. THE MAJORITY OF SCRIBES AGREED. `ALI WAS OUTRAGED. . . .

“Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 . . . .

“Translation: `Ali was asked: ‘Why are you staying home?’ He said, ‘Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored.””

Appendix 24 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran of Dr. Rashad Khalifa.

Quote:
What you're doing would be like a person saying to you, "Prove to me that the bible is written by man instead of being of Divine origin. You can only use sources of people who believe it's Divine and you can only use their methodology. If you present biblical criticism that's not valid and it's off-topic."
Bring me a verse from any scripture which is mathematically calculated? I don't want links that cannot be verified.
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:26 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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Originally Posted by goodyman View Post
Tao_Equus.

Im going to put you on the spot and ask you to prove your claim for calling me deceitful?
How original do you think you are? I've seen 101 of you come an go on this site with a supposedly open question that is just a platform to try and promote some farcical dogma. Put yourself on the spot and deny that you fit that bill.

Tao

Note: Sometimes I have trouble being "respectful", and sometimes people deserve none.
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

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You were calling the verses ''suras'' in your previous post.
No I wasn't. The verses are a part of one sura, which would negate the whole sura. You misunderstood me.

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You can be as suspicious as you like, the facts don't go away. Produce a sura like it?
You're not dealing in facts. You're dealing in apologetic, which is by its very nature the placing of facts in a very subjective and theological light, making assumptions about the world. Even if you could show all the numbers are correct, you fall prey to some of the same fallacies as many other apologetics. You assume that an omnipotent, omnicient, benevolent creator exists and from there look for evidence to prove your case. If there's something that appears to be anomalous your first assumption is that it's evidence of the Divine.

Your quote from Rashad Khalifa was alluded to in the links I gave you too, that he claimed verses were changed by scribes, however that in no way refutes the other statement that he made, that because they were added the pattern doesn't fit as well as it should, and they must be excised to fit the pattern.

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Bring me a verse from any scripture which is mathematically calculated? I don't want links that cannot be verified.
It doesn't seem like you want any links unless they support your thesis. I didn't present the link to show you a mathematically calculated verse of scripture. I presented it to show that other religions also engage in magical thinking regarding numerology to "prove", as it were, that their text is more valid. I find it somewhat disingenous that you would reject other mathematical methods that are not identical to the ones applied to the quran. The links that I provided earlier do cite that one of the criticisms of the Muslims application is that the similar tecniques have been applied to other sacred texts. Unlike you, I don't spend my time looking for reasons to believe in supernaturalism, nor do I bother to look for ways to debunk every apologetic I come across. There's a lot more to life to that. But there are those who do like spending much of their time criticizing the justifications for belief of others, for example the author of this site:

Are there Mathematical Miracles in the Qur'an or the Bible?


Under mathematics you may find worth reading the mathemetician's response with the conclusion ("This material has NO mathematical/statistical basis.") and the article What Exactly Are the Probabilities of Finding Multiples of 19.

If you scroll down there are links to examples of numerology in other religions.
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