Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos? - Page 5

Tao_Equus · 08-11-2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Hello Goodyman, and welcome to CR! I found your mathematical presentation very interesting and informative. Thank you for making the effort to share it with us.

Chris

The trouble for me is that it is not his presentation. It the same old Islam and divine mathematics postulate that flies about as well as a lead balloon. If you look at physics there are innumerable patterns that are quite amazing. If you want to believe in numerology you will find patterns that fit. Its all a load of irrelevant cobblers or the most amazing proof dependent on where you are coming from and what you want to believe.

Most of all he did not start this thread with an honest question. That says everything about where his mind is at.

Tao

Tao_Equus · 08-11-2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Tao

I certainly cannot argue with that, I believe it was the second Caliph that compiled the text in it's current form. Islamic history tells of a tribe that knew the entire Quran, in it's revealed order, by heart, so it could of course be argued that the text was compiled according to the oral tradition. Although I wasn't there so cannot comment.

Do you have any links for further reading on this, I have to confess I know little about the subject but would be interested to read up on it a little. I am particularly interested in the historical info re the significance of the number 19 and of course the evidence for 'text tampering'.

Hi MW,

My new computer should arrive early next week. Once I have it I will track down the sites I used to visit and provide you the info. Of course almost every number has been ascribed some divine significance by one group or another at one time or another. When you look from high on the terraces you begin to see that theres always a theory someone will fit to order. At the moment I seem to be a bit impatiant with this tack. I dont mean to offend anyone but it just feels like my inbuilt "bull****ometer" is constantly screaming at me recently. I'd much more concentrate on "Godless" physics problems atm. So sorry if I seem a bit blunt.

Tao

China Cat Sunflower · 08-11-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The trouble for me is that it is not his presentation. It the same old Islam and divine mathematics postulate that flies about as well as a lead balloon. If you look at physics there are innumerable patterns that are quite amazing. If you want to believe in numerology you will find patterns that fit. Its all a load of irrelevant cobblers or the most amazing proof dependent on where you are coming from and what you want to believe.

Most of all he did not start this thread with an honest question. That says everything about where his mind is at.

Tao

Yeah, I understand all of that Tao, but I wasn't aware of this particular brand of gematria and numerological intrigue, so that was interesting and allowed me to add it to my collection of such things, and I truly enjoyed Dauer's devastating critique, which we wouldn't have had the pleasure of without Goodyman's contribution. And, I think a valuable lesson was offered here about the consequences of rhetorical dis-ingenuity. So, all in all, I'd say it was a really productive venture.

I think it would be good to cut newcomers a little slack. Not everyone is up to speed on the nuances of tactful debate. I've noticed a trend of slamming newbies before they can get their bearings and settle in. People come from other online communities where different standards of discourse are the norm, or perhaps they've never engaged in this kind of activity but have lurked here for a while and finally got up the nerve to make their first post. I got slammed hard when I first came here so I know how it feels.

Chris

dauer · 08-12-2007, 02:18 AM

Chris,

Quote:

I think it would be good to cut newcomers a little slack. Not everyone is up to speed on the nuances of tactful debate. I've noticed a trend of slamming newbies before they can get their bearings and settle in. People come from other online communities where different standards of discourse are the norm, or perhaps they've never engaged in this kind of activity but have lurked here for a while and finally got up the nerve to make their first post.

You're absolutely right. I went into Shabbos feeling really angry, and that's not how I like to go into Shabbos. But it allowed me to realize that I've been falling into the same negative patterns of behavior I have whenever I feel I'm going head-to-head with a dogmatist. Once we'd each laid out our evidence goodyman and I were only talking past each other and hypocritically engaging in ad hominems while criticizing the other for their own behavior. That's hardly the type of dialogue I enjoy. I felt like I was talking to a wall, which I'm sure is similar to how goodyman felt as well.

Goodyman,

You have my sincere apologies for any innappropriate interactions on my part in this thread and I hope you'll stick around. This is a good forum with a lot of very knowledgable people.

Dauer

Muslimwoman · 08-12-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hi MW,

My new computer should arrive early next week. Once I have it I will track down the sites I used to visit and provide you the info. Of course almost every number has been ascribed some divine significance by one group or another at one time or another. When you look from high on the terraces you begin to see that theres always a theory someone will fit to order. At the moment I seem to be a bit impatiant with this tack. I dont mean to offend anyone but it just feels like my inbuilt "bull****ometer" is constantly screaming at me recently. I'd much more concentrate on "Godless" physics problems atm. So sorry if I seem a bit blunt.

Tao

Hi Tao

I can understand your reaction, the OP was very challenging. I would very much appreciate the links when you have time, always looking for new data to add the useless nonsense already in my brain and of course if the topic comes up in the future I may have something to add if I know a little about it. (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)

Salaam
MW

arthra · 08-13-2007, 11:51 AM

I notice the "summary" of Frank Lewis article above "Overview of the abjad numerological system" didn't include the following statement which to me as a Baha'i was interesting:

The numerical value of Baha' (bahá') would in either eastern or western Islamic version of abjad total to nine (9), as follows: b= 2, h= 5, á (a with accent in transliteration)= 1, hamza (')= 1 TOTAL: 9

You can find it in the complete text at:

Overview of the Abjad numerological system

As Baha'is we use the number "9" to symbolize Baha'u'llah.

There have been many number-letter systems though in use for quite some time... Gemmatria, Kabbalah, Abjad system... Maybe you could include the Bible Code books and so on...

The letter - number system can even be found referred to in the Book of Revelation.. Probably it was a way of using a code language that what not apparent at a time of oppression or suppression of truths. Babis and later Baha'is used something like this system. It's nice now and then to be included in discussions on the Abrahamic faith board..

(Sigh)

- Art

Muslimwoman · 08-13-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra

Babis and later Baha'is used something like this system. It's nice now and then to be included in discussions on the Abrahamic faith board..

Do you have any information on the techniqe they used to create their system?

Salaam

arthra · 08-13-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Do you have any information on the techniqe they used to create their system?

Salaam

It's the same Abjad reckoning I think used by many...There's an article about some of the various systems at

The Disconnected Letters of the Qur'an and the Significance of the Number Nineteen

Scroll down a bit till you get at the numerical sections.

- Art

cyberpi · 08-14-2007, 12:52 AM

OP Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

Why 4 words to describe the cosmos? I think in English just one word, four letters long suffices. Even the word 'cosmos' is only six letters. Maybe since Arabic is long winded it requires more letters and words?!

wil · 08-14-2007, 03:33 AM

Namaste Goodyman et al.

I leave for a week...and it appears someone has eaten from the tree of knowledge???

I've read the bible code books and the Kabala books and the Hindi math...all proving amazing...could they possibly be coincidences...no G!d inspired!

Quote:

Where's the Middle?

By Brian Hargis, Youth Pastor of Charity Baptist Church

In 2005, the 7th, 8th, & 9th grade Sunday School teens took on the challenge of finding the middle of the Bible. "Why?" you may ask. Because there are so many preachers, evangelist, and websites that claim that Psalms 118:8 is the middle of the Bible! So we wanted to find out for sure.
Some say that there are 31,000 verses, 31,101; 31, 102; 31, 170, or 31, 175 verses in the Bible. So which one is correct? You would think it would be easy enough to count, especially with a computer! Most claim that Psalms 118:8 is the middle which says, "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." What a dynamic verse! If you count the words in the verse you'll come up with fourteen. That's seven plus seven! We all know that God's number of completeness is seven! Now look at the middle two words of the verse...."the Lord". Imagine that! The entire Bible is centered around the Lord!
Every since I was young I heard and believed that Psalms 118:8 was the middle verse. Of course, we didn't have the computer technology back in the late 70's and 80's like we have today...so not many people took the time to challenge it! After all, it made for good preaching!
Last year I received an e-mail about Psalms 118:8 being the middle verse of the Bible, so I did some internet surfing to verify it. I ran into more problems than solutions! Numerous sites claimed that Psalms 118:8 WAS NOT the middle verse. Boy, that blew my theory away! Just trusting their research did not solve the problem. What if they were wrong? After all, taking someone's opinion for granted is what got me into this investigation in the first place! I wanted to know for sure.
That's when I presented the challenge to my Sunday school class. I divided them up into three teams. Each with a researcher, a scribe, and an adder. Without the use of a computer, they spent 6 solid weeks researching the King James Bible, with piles of scratch paper, and three office calculators. When the dust settled and the smoke cleared, all three teams came up with the same conclusion...that Psalms 118:8 is not the center verse of the Bible.
By verse count, there are 31,102 (3+1+1+0+2=7) verses in the King James Bible (which, by the way, is the only version that is inspired by God and does not have a copy write). By dividing 31,102 in half, you get 15,551. There is no single, middle verse, therefore there are TWO middle verse of the Bible...not one. Research (and our verification) will tell you that Psalms 103:1-2 are the two middle verses of the Bible.
Psalms 103:1-2 has 28 words. 28 divided by two equals 14. The number is even, so there are two middle words in these verses..."his holy." the middle quote of the middle verses in the Bible (by verse count) is, "bless his holy name." That's both fitting and biblically proven.
Other good websites about this subject:

King James Bible Statistics

The Center of the Bible? - BreakTheChain.org

Bible Statistics - Marsh Bible Commentary

King James Bible Statistics

Middle of the Holy Bible

Websites claiming Psalms 118:8 is the middle verse of the Bible:

About the Bible - Christian Answers® WebBible™

Bible Verses

Bibleinfo.com | Bible: Facts and Trivia

http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/CenterofBible/Psalm118.htm

http://mccsa.tripod.com/pastor_alice2.htm

The Center of the Bible

It is all such fun....but these proofs could also be done with Dr. Seuss books if someone had the time and inclination.

17th Angel · 08-14-2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Goodyman et al.

I leave for a week...and it appears someone has eaten from the tree of knowledge???

I've read the bible code books and the Kabala books and the Hindi math...all proving amazing...could they possibly be coincidences...no G!d inspired!

It is all such fun....but these proofs could also be done with Dr. Seuss books if someone had the time and inclination.

You can also do "disaster prediction" with ANY book.

I couldd show you that DR. Seuss predicted the JFK assassination....

IT'S A FREAKIN SIGN!

Muslimwoman · 08-15-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra

It's the same Abjad reckoning I think used by many...There's an article about some of the various systems at

The Disconnected Letters of the Qur'an and the Significance of the Number Nineteen

Scroll down a bit till you get at the numerical sections.

- Art

Salaam Art

Thank you for the link.

MW

Vajradhara · 08-27-2007, 10:30 PM

reality tastes of bread.

metta,

~v

omner · 08-28-2007, 01:52 PM

my miracle of creation

not my miracle only but maybe yours too... do we all even live in the same world?
each of our souls, or our minds, or our brains, whichever you choose to believe is your
instrument of perception, creates a complete cosmos for us, our own view of the world.

or maybe

a beautiful living egg

or

this dream we've shared

i don't think 4 words and 19 letters is that hard, it kind of reminds me of haiku

Dondi · 08-28-2007, 02:29 PM

See, all this talk of bible codes and koran numerology is all very interesting, but if one's motivation is to convert someone to their faith on that basis it is really off-base. Are we supposed to be amazed to the point where we just toss out our belief system and turn to the other because "God is proved numerically" in a particular text? Gosh, I've been following the wrong God because I didn't pay attention to the number 19.

It would be much more rather convincing to know in what ways your partucilar beliefs have radically changed your life for the better. How has it changed your relationship with your family? How has it changed relationship with other people you know? How has it changed your attitude to toward the things of God? You don't get that kind of "meat" out of trying to present to others from some clinical test of "proof" to win people to your faith. The proof is in the pudding.