Challenge - Prove it!!

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum wr wb

Something has been bothering me for a long time. I believe in Allah, in the One True G-d. I believe that when I die I will be judged based on how I acted in this life and that will determine my fate. Why do I believe this? Because my heart/soul tell me so, yet I have no proof. The Quran cannot be my proof because I cannot prove it came from Allah, I only believe it did.

I see G-d in a stream, mountains, sunrise - the list could go on forever but that is not 'proof' of His existence.

I can prove that my cup of coffee exists, I can see it, touch it, smell it and taste it.

I hear so often people of various faiths judging others, declaring their beliefs to be correct and others wrong.

So here is my challenge.

Without refering to scriptures or religious reference books at all prove that G-d exists and that your religion is the only correct form of worshipping G-d.

That means you cannot say 'it is' because my book says G-d said so. Good luck.

Salaam

[greymare]

oh good luck with this one mw, Ive been saying this for years. I hope you only get robust conversation, not dissillusioned like me. (I prophesise you will get lots of "quotes" from sciptures)

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Without refering to scriptures or religious reference books at all prove that G-d exists and that your religion is the only correct form of worshipping G-d.

Haha!

I don't subscribe to any one faith or reference book and I certainly don't wanna prove that any religion is the correct one. So can I be excused?



Yet if I wanted to prove the existence of goddess/god/divinity/creative principle it would, in my eyes, be simple. Look around. Where does all this existence come from? That question would lead me at least to conclude that some kind of intelligence is operating in the universe/multiverse. Oh sure, you could scrutinize and boil it down to chemicals and biology and the super hotness of stars and their dust, the big bang, scrutinize geology and dinosaur fossils and amoebas, invoke carbon dating and tree rings, and all that other sciencey mumbo-jumbo, but really that's all just deconstruction and avoiding the awe.



Something exists! and we're a part of it. I wish more people would appreciate that rather than trying to explain it away with science and/or religion.

[lunamoth]

I can't prove it but...

I choose to believe that life has meaning,
I know that love is the way to healing,
and Christianity teaches that God is Love.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Something has been bothering me for a long time. I believe in Allah, in the One True G-d. I believe that when I die I will be judged based on how I acted in this life and that will determine my fate. Why do I believe this? Because my heart/soul tell me so, yet I have no proof. The Quran cannot be my proof because I cannot prove it came from Allah, I only believe it did.

Expecting that there should be proof for everything I think is a symptom of our times; at least anyone with a “Western” upbringing – a society of materialism, secularism and science. Isn’t the “heart” sufficient? As a non-religious analogy, I have no proof that the best piece of music thus far created is X, but that does not mean that this is not true for me. Listening to it is all the “proof” I need, but I don’t actually call it proof, it merely confirms my opinion. The fact that the rest of the world think the music is rubbish is irrelevant (to me).

I see G-d in a stream, mountains, sunrise - the list could go on forever but that is not 'proof' of His existence.

To a lot of people it is. It depends on how one defines / conceives of God.

I can prove that my cup of coffee exists, I can see it, touch it, smell it and taste it.

You could just be dreaming it all! Your consciousness has the perception of the seeing, touching, smelling and tasting, but is that proof of an external reality? What I mean is, what constitutes "proof" ? There's whole careers in philosophy around this, if you're interested!

I hear so often people of various faiths judging others, declaring their beliefs to be correct and others wrong.

And ain’t this a problem! Personally, whatever floats your boat; as long as someone else doesn’t want to bang on at me after I’ve acknowledged but declined their kind offering of showing me the one true path. (If I’ve expressed an interest, that’s a whole different matter).

So here is my challenge.

Without refering to scriptures or religious reference books at all prove that G-d exists

See above. All creation proves it (to some people). Religious texts do, but you said not to invoke them…

and that your religion is the only correct form of worshipping G-d.

I don’t say that and never would; whether or not I “have” a religion. How arrogant! How presumptious! One ignorant little human knows this for 100% and can prove it to others! You only have to look at all the world’s religious problems of intolerance to see that people’s efforts to do this are in vain and only result in suffering and bloodshed (in the name of God?)

Good luck.

I think this suggests you know your question is “impossible” to answer categorically! Your heart is all there is, and it is sufficient.

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by greymare

(I prophesise you will get lots of "quotes" from sciptures)

Hi Grey, if I do I shall ignore them, they are not 'proof' universally, only if you accept them as proof.

Originally Posted by Pathless

I don't subscribe to any one faith or reference book and I certainly don't wanna prove that any religion is the correct one. So can I be excused?

Hee, hee you are excused.

Originally Posted by Pathless

Look around. Where does all this existence come from? That question would lead me at least to conclude that some kind of intelligence is operating in the universe/multiverse.

That is certainly MY proof and all the proof I need but I cannot then say to someone they must believe in that 'proof' and I certainly can't say they are going to hell if they don't agree with my belief in said proof.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I can't prove it but...

I choose to believe that life has meaning.

This is the point of my thread Lunamoth, people have been killed for centuries because of differences in belief but why, surely we each choose what feels right to us.

People used to believe the world is flat and how many people were murdered to 'prove it'. Did it make the world flat? I believe in G-d, the same G-d you believe in but my belief is practiced slightly differently to yours. Are you right? Am I? Are we both right or wrong? Only G-d knows and we will not find out until the Day of Judgement (in our belief) so why should people finger point and judge others? It just makes me mad.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

The fact that the rest of the world think the music is rubbish is irrelevant (to me).

Exactly Snoopy. So why can't we religious types accept that and allow others to choose the music that sounds best to them?

Originally Posted by Snoopy

You could just be dreaming it all! Your consciousness has the perception of the seeing, touching, smelling and tasting, but is that proof of an external reality? What I mean is, what constitutes "proof" ?

I wasn't looking for answers, as I accept it is impossible to prove anything. My coffee is real for me but to others it may be a figment of my imagination.

The thread idea came from a thought I had in the bath last night. I was thinking about the Palestine/Israel situation and how many people are suffering. Okay there are political issues but religion is playing it's part in the conflict. What if we are all wrong? What if we die and there is nothing for us beyond this life? Maybe G-d exists but only gives us this brief period to experience life and then ..... nothing? What if our idea of G-d is simply a way for people to mentally avoid the reality of ceasing to exist? I believe in other things but I have no proof.

You know how simplistic my mind is, so of course I ended up thinking - if there is nothing after this life wouldn't it be great if G-d brought us all back just for a moment to show us the insanity of what we do to each other as human beings. Not just the killing but the name calling and judging. Of course then I realised I was thinking about Judgement Day

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Religious texts do, but you said not to invoke them…

But they don't. Show me one religious text that is physically written by G-d (that we can prove He wrote). It doesn't exist. I believe the Quran was given to humanity through the Messenger of Allah, the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but I know that Allah did not 'write it', the Prophet interpreted G-d's message for us and over time this formed a book which I choose to follow because I believe contains the true Message of G-d. This is why it is called Faith, not science. I am not doubting the existence of G-d, I know He exists but I cannot make anyone else believe it, I have no actual proof.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

only result in suffering and bloodshed (in the name of God?)

And here we have it Snoopy. We all speak of G-d's eternal Love, of His Mercy and Compassion and then rush out to kill people in His Name. If you ever wanted proof of anything you have it right there - people are very, very stupid.

(of course when I say we I mean humans)

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I think this suggests you know your question is “impossible” to answer categorically! Your heart is all there is, and it is sufficient.

Of course it is but I was hoping some of the more 'zealous' religious finger pointers might stop and think for a moment. Probably not but worth a try.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Exactly Snoopy. So why can't we religious types accept that and allow others to choose the music that sounds best to them?

I'd just like them to turn the volume down a bit.

But they don't. Show me one religious text that is physically written by G-d (that we can prove He wrote). It doesn't exist.

I suppose I meant "sacred", such as the Quran. I think the Vedas might fit the bill, as in unauthored and eternal (for Hindus) ? -

"According to Hindu tradition, the Vedas are apauruṣeya "not human compositions", being supposed to have been directly revealed"

- Vedas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course it is but I was hoping some of the more 'zealous' religious finger pointers might stop and think for a moment. Probably not but worth a try.

Perhaps they're thinking right now.

s.

[marmalade]

I want to turn the question around.

God, if you're on this forum right now, please try to prove that I exist without reference to your own words written in the holy texts. This is a trick because the moment it/he/she answers this thread will become a holy text. Its hard trying to outsmart God.

But knowing God, it/he/she'll do something tricky like show me a divine vision within my heart. God will probably try to convince me that I exist by showing its/his/her divine presence in all of the world thus trying to make me believe I'm a spark of God or something. I'm ready for anything that God can bring on.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

as salaam aleykum wr wb

Something has been bothering me for a long time. I believe in Allah, in the One True G-d. I believe that when I die I will be judged based on how I acted in this life and that will determine my fate. Why do I believe this? Because my heart/soul tell me so, yet I have no proof. The Quran cannot be my proof because I cannot prove it came from Allah, I only believe it did.

I see G-d in a stream, mountains, sunrise - the list could go on forever but that is not 'proof' of His existence.

I can prove that my cup of coffee exists, I can see it, touch it, smell it and taste it.

I hear so often people of various faiths judging others, declaring their beliefs to be correct and others wrong.

So here is my challenge.

Without refering to scriptures or religious reference books at all prove that G-d exists and that your religion is the only correct form of worshipping G-d.

That means you cannot say 'it is' because my book says G-d said so. Good luck.

Salaam

Well, I can only ask questions: What is it that causes us to go against our materialistic/physical urges/nature/programming? By definition, it would have to be something non-material, non-physical, and not bound by a "program."

As for my religion being the only "correct one," that would sort of go against the not being bound by a "program," as stated above.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

This is the point of my thread Lunamoth, people have been killed for centuries because of differences in belief but why, surely we each choose what feels right to us.

That is a side effect of trying to "bind" something that is "unbound," imo.

People used to believe the world is flat and how many people were murdered to 'prove it'. Did it make the world flat? I believe in G-d, the same G-d you believe in but my belief is practiced slightly differently to yours. Are you right? Am I? Are we both right or wrong? Only G-d knows and we will not find out until the Day of Judgement (in our belief) so why should people finger point and judge others? It just makes me mad.

More nasty side effects of trying to "bind" something that really cannot be "bound," imo, again.

Exactly Snoopy. So why can't we religious types accept that and allow others to choose the music that sounds best to them?

Toast is the ultimate breakfast treat! {Or is it oat meal? How about almond croissants and strong coffee?}

I wasn't looking for answers, as I accept it is impossible to prove anything. My coffee is real for me but to others it may be a figment of my imagination.

Some people don't like breakfast at all. Some people prefer decaf {who don't like the caffeine}, some prefer caffeine pills {who don't like the taste of coffee,}, while many of us true coffee lovers enjoy both the taste of coffee, and the caffeine.

But they don't. Show me one religious text that is physically written by G-d (that we can prove He wrote). It doesn't exist.

Well, if we can ever find the two tablets of the Ten Commandments, that would fit the description of having been written by the finger of God. {Trouble is, they are no where to be found today.}

And here we have it Snoopy. We all speak of G-d's eternal Love, of His Mercy and Compassion and then rush out to kill people in His Name. If you ever wanted proof of anything you have it right there - people are very, very stupid.

(of course when I say we I mean humans)

There we go--trying to "bind" the idea of God, but in so doing, being bound to our physical/materialist programming of violence.

Of course it is but I was hoping some of the more 'zealous' religious finger pointers might stop and think for a moment. Probably not but worth a try.

Again, the question: what is it that causes us to go against our natural materialistic/physical programming (of trying to dominate/kill each other?) Just what is it that frees us/liberates us from this "programming?"

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I suppose I meant "sacred", such as the Quran. I think the Vedas might fit the bill, as in unauthored and eternal (for Hindus) ?

But for me to believe they would have to prove that G-d wote it.

Yes the Quran is sacred to me but I cannot prove to you where it came from, unfortunately I never got to meet the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) so for all know the things he actually said were totally different to the ones he is recorded as saying. It is only my faith that makes me accept them as being divinely inspired.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, I can only ask questions: What is it that causes us to go against our materialistic/physical urges/nature/programming? By definition, it would have to be something non-material, non-physical, and not bound by a "program."

Well it cannot be organised religion, as that always leans toward following our less attractive urges.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Toast is the ultimate breakfast treat! {Or is it oat meal? How about almond croissants and strong coffee?}

Prove it

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Some people don't like breakfast at all. Some people prefer decaf {who don't like the caffeine}, some prefer caffeine pills {who don't like the taste of coffee,}, while many of us true coffee lovers enjoy both the taste of coffee, and the caffeine.

Well here we have a nice conundrum for finger pointers. Let us take the 10 commandments. 9 of them are contained within the Quran, the exception being No 4 because we do not keep the Sabbath. So, for all the Muslim finger pointers that talk about believing in the message of all the Prophets (pbut) but only through the Quran because the message is corrupt in the other books - I am just sort pf curious what is contained in any of the books that does not go back fundamentally to those 9 commandments?

{am just moving away from the window a bit just in case of stray bolts of lightning or heavy stones).

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, if we can ever find the two tablets of the Ten Commandments, that would fit the description of having been written by the finger of God. {Trouble is, they are no where to be found today.}

I am quit near to Sinai, shall I go have a look around?

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Again, the question: what is it that causes us to go against our natural materialistic/physical programming (of trying to dominate/kill each other?) Just what is it that frees us/liberates us from this "programming?"

For me ...... my faith.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Yet if I wanted to prove the existence of goddess/god/divinity/creative principle it would, in my eyes, be simple. Look around. Where does all this existence come from? That question would lead me at least to conclude that some kind of intelligence is operating in the universe/multiverse. Oh sure, you could scrutinize and boil it down to chemicals and biology and the super hotness of stars and their dust, the big bang, scrutinize geology and dinosaur fossils and amoebas, invoke carbon dating and tree rings, and all that other sciencey mumbo-jumbo, but really that's all just deconstruction and avoiding the awe.

Ohh contraire... scrutiny only brings ever greater appreciation of the complex beauty of all things. The more I know the more I am awed. And there is no shred of proof, not even a hint of a shred of proof that there is "design" in any of it. There are a few rules that govern atomic structure, and lots of space and lots of time. So much in fact....that anything can happen. Even a scurrying little mouse like mammal can evolve into a bipedal large brained dreamer that believes in angels. Of course the angels are like him!!
Putting across ones own belief as being exclusively the correct one is entirely masturbatory. Infact when you stop to think religion is full of sexual obsession. It is a fetish. Like any fetish it is difficult to explain why one is drawn to it. And equally difficult to force it upon someone else.

Tao

[Paladin]

Subjective-objective. Oneness-separation. Creation-Creator.

Keep this up and whatever really IS will evade us forever!

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

That is certainly MY proof and all the proof I need but I cannot then say to someone they must believe in that 'proof' and I certainly can't say they are going to hell if they don't agree with my belief in said proof.

No, of course not!! Don't twist my words around and try to send people to hell because of them! Hasn't everyone already done that enough? Look at poor ol' Jesus and the sorry state his supposed words are in now, codified in a big boring book full of contradictions and too often pulled out and thumped, used by haters to prop up their ridiculous and oppressively hateful judgments.



Still, Jesus doesn't get pissed. Like Hafiz, the Sufi poet, wrote:

Look
What happens
With a love like that,
It lights the
Whole
Sky

(from "The Sun Never Says" in The Gift, poems by Hafiz, translated by Daniel Landinsky)

Oh, but now I've been disqualified, quoting scripture!

Excuse me.

But I must say one last thing. This whole challenge/prove it! approach is deeply flawed. Competitiveness is for the ignorant. Look where it has gotten us: history, war, capitalism and communism, Super Bowl Sunday, fast food. Yuck! Nothing healthy about any of that. So I suggest that we all shift our paradigms from competitiveness to creative partnership, from corporations to cooperation, and from dogmatic religion to experiential and immament spirituality.

I'm just sayin'.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Ohh contraire... scrutiny only brings ever greater appreciation of the complex beauty of all things. The more I know the more I am awed. And there is no shred of proof, not even a hint of a shred of proof that there is "design" in any of it. There are a few rules that govern atomic structure, and lots of space and lots of time. So much in fact....that anything can happen. Even a scurrying little mouse like mammal can evolve into a bipedal large brained dreamer that believes in angels. Of course the angels are like him!!

Point taken.

Originally Posted by Tao

Putting across ones own belief as being exclusively the correct one is entirely masturbatory. Infact when you stop to think religion is full of sexual obsession. It is a fetish. Like any fetish it is difficult to explain why one is drawn to it. And equally difficult to force it upon someone else.

I assume that this bit wasn't directed at me, since I don't subscribe to exclusive beliefs or try to force them on others, and have stated as much. That said, I must ask,
hey,
what's wrong with masturbation?