Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I am confused. As far as I know, you brought up pedophilia. I don't see pedophilia as having anything to do with homosexuality. But I figured I'd respond to the tangent you brought up. Maybe someone else brought it up in the 11 pages I failed to read? Dunno.

Wrong thread!!! This isn't the 11-page thread where the discussion took place on homosexuality. It actually went on in the "As a Christian what are your thoughts?" thread. I made a suggestion to Brian to have the posts moved here, but I guess the request wasn't heard. Furthermore it has had so much history now I'm so not whether there is any point.

I think the discussion was happening even before it came to the Christianity forum. I recall just recently getting a glimpse of a conversation between Juantoo and Bob in another forum. I didn't investigate, although I believe I did see some mention of the topic we're discussing now. Just thought I might mention that because it appeared that there was already some history between Juantoo and Bob even before the discussion came here.

[bob x]

No, that started on THIS thread, page 2, where Juantoo decided (at that time he was arguing with the late AndrewX) that pedophilia, of course, is the first analogy to reach for:
"What we have here is a clash of opinions. One side is of the opinion that the homosexual lifestyle is inappropriate, the other side is of the opinion that they wish to perpetuate their personal preference.
Allow us to reframe the situation a bit to better face the issues...is the same "tolerance" to be extended to paedophiles? "
MadeInRussia decided pedophilia was the proper analogy over on another thread, "As a Christian what are your thoughts?", also on this board. Then Juantoo decided to bring it back up, most recently.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by bob x

No, I cannot "choose" to be hetero from now on anymore than you could "choose" to be homo. You could of course choose to try doing it with a guy: but you would feel creepy about it, and not at all like being with him for the rest of your life-- just like I felt when I've tried it with women. If it just isn't in your nature, it isn't. I didn't get to pick my sexuality any more than I got to pick my height or my eye color.

Some people say that people choose to be gay, which implies straight people choose to be straight instead of gay. This implies that all people at some point toss it around in their heads to become straight or gay. This leaves the straight people choosing and thinking about if they should be straight over their other choice to be gay.

I am a straight male & have always been straight & did not choose to be attracted to women. It was always that way. Being with a man is disgusting to me so of course I would never choose to sleep with a man. I would think it is the same with gay people and they also do not choose. There is way more to it than just a choice that people toss around in their heads as in taking a drink of water or should I have milk.

After following a lot of facts in science, talking with a few gay people about it, I do believe that science is on the edge of proving religion is once again wrong. The ones who say people 'choose' have no facts to back them & are talking out their butts, and again oscilatiing back & forth , I said before implies that they themselves made a choice & had to think about being with the same or opposite gender & which they like better...and that is not how it was/is for me being a male attracted to females.

It sure does not leave much room for the few who are born with (who God made) to have both organs to make a choice.

I believe you Bobx.

[Muslimwoman]

My mind is so torn on this issue. All I keep thinking about is sexual arousal.

I would imagine that a gay man would not get sexually aroused if a prety naked woman stood in front of him but if a good looking man did then I imagine he would become aroused. If that is right then how could someone choose to change that?

We are all adults and surely therefore all know that there are times a visual image or even a sound or momentory thought can make us aroused at inappropriate moments, so surely that is not a mental process where we think I want to be aroused by something. Is it not automatic?

I believe sexuality can be suppressed, as people chose to be celibate but surely that would just mean a hetrosexual or a homosexual is celibate, not that their sexuality has changed?

I still don't understand the attraction for gay people but then I am not gay, so obviouslI wouldn't.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I believe sexuality can be suppressed, as people chose to be celibate but surely that would just mean a hetrosexual or a homosexual is celibate, not that their sexuality has changed?

This is what I was trying to say (much less eloquently ) above. We can choose what we do with our actions as a result of arousal, but arousal happens before we can even acknowledge it intellectually.

It makes no sense to me to argue that a gay person should stop being gay. If they are aroused by members of the same sex, that's what happens and it isn't a choice. As Bandit points out, science points to this being hard-wired.

However, it is worth noting that human sexuality is plastic. That is, cultures can (and have) made homosexuality the norm, and then the majority of people did have homosexual relationships. So it is not clearly a situation of social environment having nothing to do with sexuality. Clearly, it is both innate in some individuals to be homosexual and possible to be culturally taught in most individuals. Many surveys, starting with the Kiersey studies (did I get his name right?) in the 1950s, have found that it was very common for both men and women to have at least one homosexual experience in their lifetime. Most men and women were mostly heterosexual but still occasionally attracted to members of the same sex in certain situations (that isn't the same thing as being bisexual, by the way, but does point toward the ambiguity of normal human sexuality).

And Bandit has a definite other point-- what about hermaphrodites and people whose hormone levels do not match their sex (i.e., biologically female but with high testosterone)? These folks are entirely ignored by Christianity and all either/or gender and sexuality systems. In reality, humans don't come in only two genders and they don't appear to come in only two sexualities either. How can we blame someone for something they did not choose? If a child is born a hermaphrodite, for example, or with secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, body fat distribution, hormones, etc.) that are ambiguous, how can we justifiably force them into categories where they clearly do not fit?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Bandit

So what about the gay Christian KKK? Is no one in the KKK gay gay gay? or do they just kill them if they are, like in the muslim religion.

Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....

me thinks you may be reading more into the words than bandit implied.

CR is the only place I am appreciative of when the bandit stops by!

Anywho a very salient point came up here.

Through this conversation I suddenly recalled more than one gay person tell me they were repulsed by the thought of sex with a member of the opposite gender. That naked bodies of the opposite gender were totally unappealing.

I'm unbelievably slow as this is just what Bandit said and what sooo many heteros or homophobes say about homosexuality. And then gay folks get up in arms when it is said!! DUH!!! We both feel the same way! Is that really surprising then?

Last night a guy called in on a talk show, about having been with our good senator from Idaho over twenty years ago. He was 21 at the time, and the now senator then congressman, picked him up, had his way, treated him badly and tossed him on with the admonishment, "this never happened." He never really knew who the guy was until the Minnesota bathroom stall incident. He is telling his story not because Craig isn't out of the closet, but because he sponsors and votes for so many anti gay bills. He said the gay community has many issues, he also mentioned Dahmer as one of the terrible ones. But believes our societies impact against gays has created the venue to create Dahmers and Craigs.

Both sides have some work to be done.

[17th Angel]

I might be... But, I had to say something... If the tables were turned and someone just happened to compare christians to hitler... For example, someone would say something.... So I -just- had to make sure... That this statement isn't a blanket statement.... Because, that would be a lie.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I might be... But, I had to say something... If the tables were turned and someone just happened to compare christians to hitler... For example, someone would say something.... So I -just- had to make sure... That this statement isn't a blanket statement.... Because, that would be a lie.

Now what I was referring to is the reference comparing all Muslims to the KKK, I for one feel that analogy could be appropriate for the terrorists who preach a radical Islam that I don't feel is Islam. But as far as homosexuality and Islam, it is my understanding that it was a capitol crime under the taliban and in Saudi Arabia and in many other countries, I don't know if that has changed, but death was not out of the question.

While many folks believe we here in the west are in the dark ages in regards to this subject, in general Islamic countries are decades to centuries behind us (as far as I know)

[17th Angel]

I guess, yes in some places ALIKE in christanity people can be killed and/or punished for being homosexual.... *looks over to the west seeing picket lines and signs saying "god hates f*gs".....* But that is human error.... We take what we want and make the rest up... It says in the Qur'an....

"And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they ore purer for you (if you marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a right-handed man?"

Here notice.... They are trying to help change and support not kill.....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I guess, yes in some places ALIKE in christanity people can be killed and/or punished for being homosexual.... *looks over to the west seeing picket lines and signs saying "god hates f*gs".....* But that is human error.... We take what we want and make the rest up... It says in the Qur'an....

"And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they ore purer for you (if you marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a right-handed man?"

Here notice.... They are trying to help change and support not kill.....

A little bit apples and oranges. In the west there are groups of people who use scripture and justification for their prejudices. In the middle east there exist Islamic governments that are using sharia or similar law to imprison and execute. I could be completely wrong, but again believe it is more important to actually lay all the cards on the table than play word games.

[17th Angel]

I guess it could depend on the situation? Such as is the homosexual married? If so.... Then there is adultery... And the price for this?.... As I am new to the scene... I am asking some Muslims I have befriended on a forum for help understanding..... I'll be back

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Come again?

I like how you go on about the christians and all that... Then compare ALL Muslims to the freaking KKK... Such.... "accuracy".... Puh-lease....

I didn't put the word all. You put it.

We all know that the word ALL in religion only means all when someone needs it to mean all, then when someone needs the word all to mean only some, the word all means only some.

I feel pretty confident you could go back less than 100 years and apply the word ALL to both religions when it comes to killing gay people. There is also a religious/political system in quite a few Islam nations where you will be tried for being gay and under the religious/political law you or your son or will be executed for being gay. That has nothing to do with the extremists like KKK or Taliban, but is the religious and political law.

They say the majority of media reports suggest the official charges were fabricated to reduce any public sympathy for the youths and that the real reason was the youths' sexual orientation.
Homosexuality is illegal in almost all Muslim countries, and punishable by death in many of them. But gay and human rights groups say Iran's record is particularly shocking, having executed possibly thousands of gay men since the Islamic revolution.

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Iran 'must stop youth executions'

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

Now what I was referring to is the reference comparing all Muslims to the KKK, I for one feel that analogy could be appropriate for the terrorists who preach a radical Islam that I don't feel is Islam. But as far as homosexuality and Islam, it is my understanding that it was a capitol crime under the taliban and in Saudi Arabia and in many other countries, I don't know if that has changed, but death was not out of the question.

While many folks believe we here in the west are in the dark ages in regards to this subject, in general Islamic countries are decades to centuries behind us (as far as I know)

Right.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I guess it could depend on the situation? Such as is the homosexual married? If so.... Then there is adultery... And the price for this?.... As I am new to the scene... I am asking some Muslims I have befriended on a forum for help understanding..... I'll be back

Gay marriage in Islam? You know it would be interesting to know if there were a sect that has become that tolerant. from yahoo answers...

Should Islamic countries allow gay marriage? at the moment most islamic countries punish gays with death or long prison sentences just for being themselves...shouldn't muslim countries show how tolerant and peaceful islam is and give full human rights to muslim homosexuals? what do you think? any thoughts?

get YOUR facts right buddy!! name ONE arab country where Homosexuality is NOT a crime??

The person above asks which Muslim countries execute homosexuals. They include Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen and Iraq.
In Palestine, gays have been killed by police and mobs and, when arrested for their "crime" have been imprisoned, beaten, and made to stick their heads in buckets of excrement.
Despite legal safeguards, gays in Egypt also face persecution, and under the taliban Afghanistan was also a gay=death society. Like Iraq, its current laws are unclear.

The only reasonable answer to the question is surely "yes."

Now talk about a leap, here in the states where homosexuality was also a crime not too many decades ago, where we are still denying gay marriages, we think it possible that Saudi would?