Changing Sexual Orientation Is Possible, New Research Says

[Basstian]

You win

If I say anymore about Sin or about Christ dieing on the cross to save sinners me included I have become all you accuse me of.

Peace

[Doug]

Hello everyone,

I'm new and I've read this thread with great interest. I'm gay. When I first came out a few years ago I thought sexuality was etched in stone. But since I've come into contact with more people over the last few years I tend towards the opinion that there can be some flexibilty on that score but that most people are comfortable on one side of the fence or the other.

On the actual statisitcs of the report-that 15% of the gay people who went to see these evangelicals were "turned"-I just don't know. I'd like to see a similar study where straight people learned to convince themselves they were gay and see if we get a similar percentage rate. Then we can have a comparison. But do you know, I just don't see that study coming about

What I am seriously concerned about are people who say that they have changed but have in fact not done so and are simply trying to appease others and make themselves more socially acceptable to their peers. It must be awfull. It would be like running back into the closet and sloting the locks in behind you-a sitution I would never want to be in.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Andrew!

Originally Posted by AndrewX

When we fight the war of words, even the war on ideas, we sometimes forget the battle that goes on in our hearts ... and why.

We also seem to forget that the same freedom to speak our minds and hearts also means we have an inherent right to disagree. Clouding the issue with emotional blackmail to disguise this fact does not change it.

The perps that attack gays are criminals, regardless of what banner they hide behind.

The fact that some respected people in my life including co-workers and professors live lifestyles I disagree with in no manner means I cannot work with or learn from them. I have been the last remaining lifeline and friend to far more than simply gays who were otherwise socially on the outs with the rest of society. I can agree to disagree and remain friends, something I challenge everyone to do.

Some are quick to point that Jesus communed with thieves, drunks and prostitutes. I agree. The point overlooked is that he did not have to agree with their behaviour, and he didn't.

If a person has decided to live a gay life, so be it, for them. Do not expect me to agree with that lifestyle, for myself. I do not agree with the lifestyle of drunks and addicts, pimps and frauds, and a host of other lifestyle choices. That does not make me intolerant, that makes me thoughtful. What is more, it is my fundamental right to make my own decisions, on this or any other matter, by which to guide my life.

So, Andrew, barbs notwithstanding, for I have and had many acquaintances and some friends that lead "alternate" lifestyles, I wonder when you will have the "guts" I believe is how you phrased it, to have friends who are paedophiles, or frauds, or hard drug addicts? How many criminals in prison do you visit, or at least write to? This "tolerance" thing really does transcend just the gay political lobby.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Doug

On the actual statisitcs of the report-that 15% of the gay people who went to see these evangelicals were "turned"

Namaste and Welcome to CR Doug!

Your points are well taken. My question what will their orientation be 5-10-20 years from now. I knew a psychologist, he was writing a book on this subject, prided himself in 'turning' folks right. I found his attitude and thoughts fairly swarmy. I'd prefer to be in the company of gay folks than he and his family.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

... have friends who are paedophiles, or frauds, or hard drug addicts? How many criminals in prison do you visit....

You know I don't visit prisons...but for some reason lately I've been drawn to doing something in that regard...don't know what yet...but as far those classified by society as criminals as friends and acquaintances ... I think I may have too many...(granted I don't see them near as often as I used to...)

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Andrew!


We also seem to forget that the same freedom to speak our minds and hearts also means we have an inherent right to disagree. Clouding the issue with emotional blackmail to disguise this fact does not change it.

The perps that attack gays are criminals, regardless of what banner they hide behind.

The fact that some respected people in my life including co-workers and professors live lifestyles I disagree with in no manner means I cannot work with or learn from them. I have been the last remaining lifeline and friend to far more than simply gays who were otherwise socially on the outs with the rest of society. I can agree to disagree and remain friends, something I challenge everyone to do.

Some are quick to point that Jesus communed with thieves, drunks and prostitutes. I agree. The point overlooked is that he did not have to agree with their behaviour, and he didn't.

If a person has decided to live a gay life, so be it, for them. Do not expect me to agree with that lifestyle, for myself. I do not agree with the lifestyle of drunks and addicts, pimps and frauds, and a host of other lifestyle choices. That does not make me intolerant, that makes me thoughtful. What is more, it is my fundamental right to make my own decisions, on this or any other matter, by which to guide my life.

So, Andrew, barbs notwithstanding, for I have and had many acquaintances and some friends that lead "alternate" lifestyles, I wonder when you will have the "guts" I believe is how you phrased it, to have friends who are paedophiles, or frauds, or hard drug addicts? How many criminals in prison do you visit, or at least write to? This "tolerance" thing really does transcend just the gay political lobby.

juantoo3,

I am sorry you have issues. Those, however, are YOUR problem ... not mine. I will not let you MAKE them my problem, and you will NEVER hear me say, "Oh, it's okay now, I see what you mean ... you don't really hate me!"

Yeah, right!

Just as it would be impossible to help you to understand that Jesus never touched a drop of WINE in his adult life, it will be impossible for me to get it across to you that LOVING people was not some kind of great big publicity stunt!

But that is what you have tried to turn it into. And frankly, you only make an ass of yourself, when you continue to try and compare homosexuals to "paedophiles, or frauds, or hard drug addicts" and imprisoned "criminals." juantoo3, this shows that your hate actually runs quite deep, and that, if you had your way, this is EXACTLY where you would like to see homosexuals (put, or kept).


Brother, you HAVE said it. You have said it about three times now. And so let me respond with my own idea, for how to handle your particular problem (that is, the problem which YOU (re)present):

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they took all the intolerant people ... and put THEM behind bars. And no, I will not discriminate. So I don't care WHAT your chosen religion happens to be. Such intolerance DESERVES punishment, regardless, and such people deserve to have a permanent label tattoo'd to their head ... maybe something like, "Hates gays," short 'n sweet. That way, we can keep track of you, and know when to get out of the way ... especially when we see a mob of you coming - whether you're singing, Praise Jesus as you march angrily forward ... or kill the queers. As some folks have noticed, these amount to the same thing.

I do live in the Bible Belt, but I'll be honest. I haven't seen this kind of prejudice and intolerance for quite some time. But I am grateful that we have the opportunity to work it out, on a discussion forum, first - rather than to have to confront it, perhaps in more difficult circumstances, on a day to day, real life basis.

You might be surprised, juantoo3, at just how uncomfortable YOU make homosexuals. You have a CHOICE ... as to whether or not to demonstrate that you have heard ONE WORD of Christ's message to LOVE. And if you choose non-acceptance, with regard to gay people, your choice is made.

{Added: No one is asking you, nor has anyone asked, that you adopt a gay lifestyle, have gay sex, or advocate homosexuality. You, of course, make it sound like all three of these are true. But again, NO ONE has even SUGGESTED it. Your CHOICES are yours; and SO is the choice to LOVE. You don't seem to recognize that yet. All you can say, is "Well, I WOULD choose to Love, BUT -"}

~Andrew

[AndrewX]

Hmm, in the above post, I notice that things may sound a bit extreme ... the way I've worded them. Therefore, if this doesn't quite seem to fit - since `hate' is a rather strong word - just replace `hate' with fear, homophobia and intolerance. Then, I think you'll find everything fits right into place.

~andrew

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Hmm, in the above post, I notice that things may sound a bit extreme ... the way I've worded them. Therefore, if this doesn't quite seem to fit - since `hate' is a rather strong word - just replace `hate' with fear, homophobia and intolerance. Then, I think you'll find everything fits right into place.

~andrew

We also seem to forget that the same freedom to speak our minds and hearts also means we have an inherent right to disagree. Clouding the issue with emotional blackmail to disguise this fact does not change it.

Or do you still not understand? Judge not that you be not judged. Because you accuse me, multiple times now in this thread, of hatred, does not make it so.

From where I sit, I think you see something in me that reminds of something that disgusts you about yourself.

Tolerance and acceptance are not the same thing. I can tolerate without being acceptant, even though you might disagree.

Freedom is a two way street. So is intelligent dialogue. Shouting me down with name calling and false accusations does not change the fact that I have a right to guide my life every bit as much as you have a right to guide yours.

Unless of course, you wish to deny me what is rightfully mine...which makes you guilty of what you accuse me of?

So, how many people in prisons and hospitals and nursing homes and homeless shelters do you visit and comfort, even by mail? Simple question, how about a simple, straightforward answer? Put your money where your mouth is. G-d knows you've eaten enough rice gruel, perhaps its time you started washing your bowl? I showed you mine, now show all of us yours.

Luv ya, bro, just not in that way.

[flowperson]

Perhaps we might all benefit from the repeat of an old adage muttered by an obscure carpenter quite a few years ago..."measure twice...cut once ".

flow....

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I have a right to guide my life every bit as much as you have a right to guide yours.

More than a right, juantoo3, it is even a responsibility. So why not mind your OWN affairs, and STOP trying to play GOD for other people.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

So, how many people in prisons and hospitals and nursing homes and homeless shelters do you visit and comfort, even by mail? Simple question, how about a simple, straightforward answer? Put your money where your mouth is. G-d knows you've eaten enough rice gruel, perhaps its time you started washing your bowl? I showed you mine, now show all of us yours.

Hmmm, let's see, Mr. Self-Righteous, I literally JUST stepped foot back in my house from spending time with a 102 year old friend, and co-esotericist. You wouldn't last 2 minutes in her company, I'm afraid. Her BS-meter is far too sensitive for what you're shoveling. You see, she's taught me more about the CHRIST within, and about what it means to LIVE it, than I would ever learn in a book of Sundays, sitting listening to your empty rhetoric on "hating the sin, loving the sinner." It is you, who needs to put his money where his mouth is.

The friend I visited, I have visited OFTEN. I visited her while in the hospital, on multiple occasions, during her recent extended stay. I have now taken down well over a dozen letters for her, since it is both a service to her, and a way of helping to fulfil my small part in the ONE WORK ... as esotericists often refer to it.

I also do shopping for this person, both in her company, and as I did earlier this afternoon - alone - when she is unable to get out (at age 102) and accompany me. But I do it, not just because she is unable, or needs the help, I do it because it is a true JOY. And I do it gladly, with no thought of reward or payback, in Heaven. What can YOU even tell me, about this `Heaven' of yours, juantoo3 ... being as how you have no direct experience of it?

How do I know, that you haven't direct experience of this Heaven, the one which Christ Jesus taught me - and you - is right here, right now, even within us ... for those with eyes to see, and ears to hear? Because, my friend, I STILL NOTICE - that you are talking the talk, but not walking the walk.



I STILL SEE, that you have mistaken the teachings of Christ, for something you have been spoon-fed, and swallowed all too readily, as it is easier to digest, and less prone to UPSET your delicate mental digestive tract. Christ taught us to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR as ourselves, yet He also told us THIS:

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? -- Matthew 5:46-47

You do not know HOW to love your (supposed) enemies. And yet, homosexuals are not your enemies, except through your own, self-declared WAR ... which ye wage, foolishly, from a vantage point of self-righteousness and divisiveness.

This war is one that need not go on. If you CLAIM to follow Jesus, or to believe in the LEAST of His Teachings, His Good Works, and His Ministry - its Aim and its Purpose - then it is you who needs to put his money where his mouth is. It is YOU who needs to show me, that you do NOT hate queers. For I know that you are afraid of homosexuality, and homosexuals, both for their lifestyle, and also because it would embarrass you greatly, to have to admit ... that you have made a mountain out of a molehill, and that in fact, Christ REALLY DID MEAN that we should love EVERYONE - and not just those select, closest few, who happen to be our friends, and believe the way we do, and accept our same sympathies and antipathies. But then, IGNORE your own HOLY BOOK, as you are wont to do, when it is more convenient. This, as you point out, is your RIGHT.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Luv ya, bro, just not in that way.

Then in just exactly what way do you actually love ... since homosexuality clearly makes you quite uncomfortable - not just in imagining possibilities, but even just conversing with people who have CHOSEN that lifestyle? Other than TYPING the words ... how IS IT, that you "love" me - or in fact, ANYONE, who just happens not to fit your narrow mold?

[bob x]

There is the synoptic Christ, who taught a morality of "reciprocity", based on the principle of treating others as if they were people like yourself (which they are)
I am sorry for your hang-ups. This is the internet, you can tell me that you are the queen of England....

Patti: LOL, it sounded like you thought it was a "hang-up" of mine that I think others should be treated like yourself, and that calling myself another person just like you was as absurd as claiming to be the queen of England.

The fact remains you are spinning your wheels if you are trying to blame Christianity for this crime. People who commit crimes are criminals

Sure. Christian criminals, in this case, motivated by their Christianity. Christians have murdered Jews, heathens, witches, "heretics", and homosexuals for many centuries, motivated by their Christianity. You are spinning your wheels if you are trying to pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it.

I can agree to disagree and remain friends, something I challenge everyone to do.

Juantoo, when you say that I am the same kind of person as a child molester, that is not at all being a friend. It is foul, and utterly uncalled-for. I do not understand how you can fail to see how profoundly you are my enemy when you speak in such a way. Accusing us of being child molesters is the customary way to incite our murder (the equivalent of "Jews bake their Passover matzohs with Christian babies' blood"). You want to pretend you have nothing to do with the thugs, but the words you utter are the very air they breathe.

If a person has decided to live a gay life...

One more time, I didn't get to DECIDE. It's my life, that's all.

[Cyris Ali]

Originally Posted by Pathless

IMO, sexual orientation is a continuum. I believe people are more or less bisexual by nature, and then we are conditioned one way or the other, to start.

Excuse me, please...
but, "by nature", sex is geared towards nesting and procreation.
Survival of the species.

Not the game itself.

That is the bottom line.
It cannot be disputed.

And what you are saying is, in fact, also a type of conditioning.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Andrew.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

More than a right, juantoo3, it is even a responsibility. So why not mind your OWN affairs, and STOP trying to play GOD for other people.

It is not I playing G-d, that to me would be blasphemous. So why then do you continue in this thread and elsewhere to deny others their responsibility and right to conduct their own affairs? If there is no harm to you or others, what threat causes such vitriol from you?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Hmmm, let's see, Mr. Self-Righteous,

Why the continued ad hoiminem attacks? I have not attacked you a single time in this discussion. I have only, simply and politely disagreed. My simple disagreement is sufficient for your attacks?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I literally JUST stepped foot back in my house from spending time with a 102 year old friend, and co-esotericist.

Anybody who has managed to live past 100 years has my respect.

I see that your personal philanthropy is narrowly limited though, to one who is specifically called out by you in your specific camp. It is hardly any burden to help those with whom we are comfortable, how many have you helped that make you otherwise uncomfortable?

I have been a lifeline to two people in jail, one a drug addict and the other a paedophile. I work in a hospital serving and working with those I agree with and those I disagree with, including gays and AIDS patients (and a whole assortment of other angry cusses). I have served in a soup kitchen for the homeless. I have been the only remaining friend to someone who got caught in a gay act in the military and was later discharged because of it. I have been surrounded by disabled people, myself included, for well over ten years now. I have lived in inter-racial families since I was 13 or so. I live in an inter-racial marriage now. But I am the narrow minded bigot here, let us not forget.

Make no mistake, I am no saint and do not pretend to be one. These were and are no burden to me (well, maybe the soup kitchen, I did that with ulterior motive). These are simply what I felt was the right thing to do.

I don't give to every panhandler. I don't go out of my way for every fashionable political civil rights lobby. I am just an ordinary guy trying to make my way back to the Heavenly Father. I do what I feel is best most of the time, and some of the time I don't. I'm human. Which seems to not be enough for some, and too much for others, so I can't win for losing anyway, so to hell with trying to please everybody. I'm not about to walk on eggshells just because you or any other is throwing a temper tantrum.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You wouldn't last 2 minutes in her company, I'm afraid. Her BS-meter is far too sensitive for what you're shoveling. You see, she's taught me more about the CHRIST within, and about what it means to LIVE it, than I would ever learn in a book of Sundays, sitting listening to your empty rhetoric on "hating the sin, loving the sinner." It is you, who needs to put his money where his mouth is.

It's too bad she would be so biased and prejudiced, I would have thought better.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

The friend I visited, I have visited OFTEN. I visited her while in the hospital, on multiple occasions, during her recent extended stay. I have now taken down well over a dozen letters for her, since it is both a service to her, and a way of helping to fulfil my small part in the ONE WORK ... as esotericists often refer to it.

I also do shopping for this person, both in her company, and as I did earlier this afternoon - alone - when she is unable to get out (at age 102) and accompany me. But I do it, not just because she is unable, or needs the help, I do it because it is a true JOY. And I do it gladly, with no thought of reward or payback, in Heaven.

Cool, I used to do much the same for my great grand mother when she was still alive. Notice I didn't count her above, because she is mine, just as I am hers. Not unlike how you have claimed your friend as your own, and she has you.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

What can YOU even tell me, about this `Heaven' of yours, juantoo3 ... being as how you have no direct experience of it?

No more than you can tell me, being as you have had no direct experience of it either.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

How do I know, that you haven't direct experience of this Heaven, the one which Christ Jesus taught me - and you - is right here, right now, even within us ... for those with eyes to see, and ears to hear? Because, my friend, I STILL NOTICE - that you are talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

I find this comment ironic, to be polite.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I STILL SEE, that you have mistaken the teachings of Christ, for something you have been spoon-fed, and swallowed all too readily, as it is easier to digest, and less prone to UPSET your delicate mental digestive tract. Christ taught us to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR as ourselves, yet He also told us THIS:

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? -- Matthew 5:46-47

You do not know HOW to love your (supposed) enemies. And yet, homosexuals are not your enemies, except through your own, self-declared WAR ... which ye wage, foolishly, from a vantage point of self-righteousness and divisiveness.

I see you still lump people together and paint with a huge brush. But I'm the one that is prejudiced.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

This war is one that need not go on.

Indeed. So cease and desist.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

If you CLAIM to follow Jesus, or to believe in the LEAST of His Teachings, His Good Works, and His Ministry - its Aim and its Purpose - then it is you who needs to put his money where his mouth is. It is YOU who needs to show me, that you do NOT hate queers. For I know that you are afraid of homosexuality, and homosexuals, both for their lifestyle, and also because it would embarrass you greatly, to have to admit ... that you have made a mountain out of a molehill, and that in fact, Christ REALLY DID MEAN that we should love EVERYONE - and not just those select, closest few, who happen to be our friends, and believe the way we do, and accept our same sympathies and antipathies. But then, IGNORE your own HOLY BOOK, as you are wont to do, when it is more convenient. This, as you point out, is your RIGHT.

I have already laid that evidence before you, and as I suspected it would be ignored. Want signed affadavits? If you claim to follow Blavatsky and Bailey, et al, then why are you so venomous?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Then in just exactly what way do you actually love

Interesting and ironic, that you should ask.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

... since homosexuality clearly makes you quite uncomfortable

You mean like how my sticking to my faith walk makes you uncomfortable? Or my open disagreement with you makes you uncomfortable? Or how my mentioning homosexuality in the same paragraph as common criminals makes you uncomfortable? Or how conservative politics makes you uncomfortable?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

- not just in imagining possibilities,

A colonoscopy without the benefit of anesthetic? That would be one heck of a toy, wouldn't it? I don't recommend a prostate biopsy though, that thing doesn't play nice at all.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

but even just conversing with people who have CHOSEN that lifestyle?

You don't know me from Adam, you don't know who I know, who I converse with, who I commune with. Frankly, it's none of your business either. And it is very, very presumptive of you to think you do.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Other than TYPING the words ... how IS IT, that you "love" me - or in fact, ANYONE, who just happens not to fit your narrow mold?

By your own admission your focus is limited to your own, but I'm the one that's narrow minded? I have yet to see you exhibit the love you prattle on about.

I know we have a long adversarial history. I did not bring this issue to you, you brought it here. I am on defense, and I am not backing down. Not from you, not about my right to guide my life in the way I deem wise and acceptable. I disagree with you.

Luv ya, bro. Get over it.

[China Cat Sunflower]

I wonder what it would be like to be gay. I got a little dry shave from a nice gay male nurse this morning. He was prepping me for the sticky pads that the electrodes hook up to so they could stress test my heart. Now my chest looks like a man-o-lantern! Anyway...

I doubt one can become un-gay, even with Jesus' and God's help. But I was wondering what it would be like to desperately believe that. To want that. On the other hand there is the implication that a "man" would be expected to sex his wife in a "manly" fashion, and believe to at least a degree in all the manly-isms that go with that, in order to have a functional heterosexual marriage. I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

Chris

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by bob x

Patti: LOL, it sounded like you thought it was a "hang-up" of mine that I think others should be treated like yourself, and that calling myself another person just like you was as absurd as claiming to be the queen of England.

Sure. Christian criminals, in this case, motivated by their Christianity. Christians have murdered Jews, heathens, witches, "heretics", and homosexuals for many centuries, motivated by their Christianity. You are spinning your wheels if you are trying to pretend Christianity has nothing to do with it.

Your "hang-ups" are blaming Christianity and taking an endless victim attitude. (Did they teach you that in law school?)

Criminals have been murdering and rationalizing for quite a while. Regardless of their stance, Christ has nothing to do with it. History is rife with garbage, there is a lot of clean-up work to do.

What is truly absurd is that you believe these criminals are Christians.

[bob x]

"Your "hang-ups" are blaming Christianity and taking an endless victim attitude. "
I was ASKED if I had been victimized, and I answered. A little while ago, you were taking me to task for not wallowing endlessly in the matter by pursuing useless lawsuits-- and now you are taking me to task for honestly mentioning what occurred?

"What is truly absurd is that you believe these criminals are Christians."
They are "Christians" every bit as much as Palestinian "freedom fighters" or Iraqi "insurgents" are Muslims. If you want to tell me they have little resemblance to what Jesus had in mind, I would agree with you (but then, I think very little of the New Testament has much resemblance to what Jesus had in mind). However, I need a generic word for "members of that prominent two thousand year old movement that now has about two billion members", and like most speakers of the English language, I call such people "Christians". They didn't get this notion that we are all child molesters from the Buddhists: they got it from "good Christians" like Juan here. And they got the notion that we deserve death from the Bible, not from the Bhagavad Gita.
You, as an insider to the movement, would like to reserve the word "Christian" (in a version of the "No true Scotsman..." game) for your own particular subtype, but I have no interest in your private definitions. To me it is a "faction membership" word, for anyone who considered "Christ" (however they conceptualize "Christ", and however much or little their concept of "Christ" has to do with the historical Jesus) central to their world-view. It is, as I use the word, analogous to "Cub fan": anyone who says they are a Cub fan is, just by saying they are rooting for the Cubs, by definition a "Cub fan".