Chinese Medicine

[Penguin]

I know the type of plant and root remedies that Shaolin Monks use and this sort of approach is fine. Anything that involves animals to die or suffer for whatever requirement is totally unacceptable to me.

P.S Glad you associate penguins with being insane and juicy! I think the avatar is the most confrontational one so far :-)

[17th Angel]

Yeah I guess some plants indeed have medical property but using Tiger eyeballs or Ape bones or squid legs or whatever lol.... Freaking wrong and freaking nuts....

Guin: Confrontational?! I could do alot worse!!! So this is a good one! Also many christians I be talking to don't seem to have issues with it... Which is how it should be, I ain't got a problem with their avartars and I would like that to be vice versa.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I know the type of plant and root remedies that Shaolin Monks use and this sort of approach is fine. Anything that involves animals to die or suffer for whatever requirement is totally unacceptable to me.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Yeah I guess some plants indeed have medical property but using Tiger eyeballs or Ape bones or squid legs or whatever lol.... Freaking wrong and freaking nuts....

Are both of you vegans? In regards to health omnivores and carnivores around the world believe that meat eating cures hunger. And shark cartilage has been sold for a number of years all over for arthritis. Now the craze of shark fin soup, I have issues with that, and rhino horn, etc.

If one is not vegan, refraining from all animal use...I've always wondered how one draws the line. Egg and milk production are fairly sickening when you go to the farm. But with the speed we are wiping out our bees with pesticides and replacing their honey with sugar water....could be vegans will be meat eaters again...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

Are both of you vegans? In regards to health omnivores and carnivores around the world believe that meat eating cures hunger. And shark cartilage has been sold for a number of years all over for arthritis. Now the craze of shark fin soup, I have issues with that, and rhino horn, etc.

If one is not vegan, refraining from all animal use...I've always wondered how one draws the line. Egg and milk production are fairly sickening when you go to the farm. But with the speed we are wiping out our bees with pesticides and replacing their honey with sugar water....could be vegans will be meat eaters again...

You already know the answer to that, No I am not a vegan... I do however cringe more and more when cooking animals... So who knows I might, but I don't know what else to eat.... That is going to sound quite strange I'm sure.... Vegtables are evil, I dislike them the majority of the time... And I can't keep them as they go off...... |: But with meat, I freeze it and there a month supply of food... :\ I am eating it, it sustains me... TRUE I can sustain myself on other things, BUT it does sustain me and feed me... It is of REAL freaking use.... Eyeballs of the tiger and **** isn't that is just primitive mumbo jumbo.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

.. BUT it does sustain me and feed me... It is of REAL freaking use.... Eyeballs of the tiger and **** isn't that is just primitive mumbo jumbo.

How do you know that? Many of todays synthetic remedies came from indigenous peoples mumbo jumbo. Accupuncture described meridians and points thousands of years ago...western science just in the past few decades has started recognizing it as agonizingly correct after putting it under the guise of mumbo jumbo for ever!

Many of our synthetic allopathic drugs are modeled after active ingredients in plants that were used for centuries before science discovered their qualities. Since the shaman's and medicine men and tribal lore have so many on target hits with plants, herbs, muds, poultices, methods and means....I sure wouldn't discount that they also have some validity when it comes to utilizing organs, features, parts of animals.

[17th Angel]

Why is it banned in China then? Why punishable by death? IF it does something amazing? Such as the stupid fools that eat a tigers penis.... Thinking it is an aphrodisiac lol come on... It's all in the head... All in the loopy loopy head.....


--EDIT--
Sorry missed a small bit of information there didn't I... Easy to forget, that there is NO scientific freaking evidence..... That prooves this bs works lol...

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why is it banned in China then? Why punishable by death? IF it does something amazing? Such as the stupid fools that eat a tigers penis.... Thinking it is an aphrodisiac lol come on... It's all in the head... All in the loopy loopy head.....
--EDIT--
Sorry missed a small bit of information there didn't I... Easy to forget, that there is NO scientific freaking evidence..... That prooves this bs works lol...

Seriously 17th. My question is, if the ancients were correct about many herbs and plants why do you think they would be 100% wrong over every animal use?

Now I am not saying they were 100% correct about all plants and I am not saying in this particular case they are correct about tiger eyeballs, penis or whatever you are referring to. But I am saying the odds are that many remedies that are animal sourced will also be found to have validity.

Now no scientific evidence isn't proof of anything if science isn't studying it is it? And because some country passed a law doesn't simply make it right and valid does it....otherwise folks would be paying their TV tax for the BBC ...right? After all, they passed the law it must be right and valid! You and I both know laws are generally passed for political, economic, and safety considerations amongst others, but not due to any certain sanity or science.

Now I personally don't eat tiger anything..or beef...or pig...or lamb...or chicken....or duck...or anything with feet... I do still eat things with eyes (fish and potato) But just because I choose not to eat this, and understand that some species are endangered and the slaughter is so selective and the waste of the rest of the animal is disgusting....all that does not imply that there is no validity to the treatment or the use of same.

I am not supporting or claiming it should be done....I'm just not willing to make blanket statements saying that all of the traditional uses are mumbo jumbo.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

Seriously 17th. My question is, if the ancients were correct about many herbs and plants why do you think they would be 100% wrong over every animal use?

I am not supporting or claiming it should be done....I'm just not willing to make blanket statements saying that all of the traditional uses are mumbo jumbo.

Because what they have done with SOME plants has been prooven to have some sort of effect or whatever, alot didn't do jack, but indeed some pot luck shots have worked...... With animals however.... Sweet pluck all has been prooven... It's just their opinion that it works nothing to back that up, nothing.

I didn't make a blanket statement, did I? *looks back* No I didn't... I said their animal treatments where a bunch of bull.... Which I stand by. I didn't say eeeevury thang is bull somethings sure they got lucky... That's all.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

pot luck

yeah, that white willow, digitalis, squaw tea, alfalfa, cramp bark, echinecea, golden seal, noni, tea tree oil, aqai, ...... and pot....yes all with medicinal value...

the ancient used to watch nature...they'd watch what the animals ate when they were sick...they watched the animals eat organs first...

you'll have to copy me on the science that disproves....as science and laws in the US disproved Stevia due to the aspartame and sugar lobbies...they were overturned as common sense sort of prevailed (stevia still cannot be labeled as a sweetener in the US) Tryptophan was banned as dangerous when science (synthetic gentically modified organism created tryptophan) killed people...the sleeping pill lobbies rejoiced....common sense eventually prevailed.

Science even proved that beta carotene the antioxidant found in orange veggies...actually increased the risk of cancer in smokers....it made headlines but then you had to read the actual journal article to find out what was tested wasn't natural beta carotene but some synthetic that phizer was trying to have approved.

So yeah, we'll outlaw whatever but as soon as they can create synthetic tiger penis it'll be touted around the world....

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

Science even proved that beta carotene the antioxidant found in orange veggies...actually increased the risk of cancer in smokers

What doesn't lol.... I fart in the general direction of cancer..... That is why It will never knock at my door.... Never... Promise ya

A: Oh man..... I had to wait 15mins yesterday for the freaking bus...
B: For shizzles? Be careful dude, you can get cancer doing that.......


C: See you later going to bed...
D: WOAH MAN!!! Don't you know sleeping gives you cancer!!!


I could go on with many more very, VERY common conversations that are happening around the world right now.....

It's all the range everything is cancer! I think it will turn out like harry potter? THE NAME YOU DO NOT SPEAK!! You know like volvomart or whatever.

[Eclectic Mystic]

Chinese herbs which are imported by America are also known as American Chinese Herbs and are subject to ethical codes/restriction and enforcment in America.

[Penguin]

With technological advances that are being made on a daily basis these days I find it hard to accept that killing animals for a specific part to make an ingredient to help cure or easy suffering of a human ailment is correct. With the medical research that has, and will be found in the future to make even more chemical remedies effective the technology evolving should reduce the need for humans to kill animals for that "essential" ingredient shouldn't it? We don't live in primitive/ancient times anymore but I can understand why the ancients experimented with animal ingredients simply because they knew of nothing else at that time and had nothing to compare things against like we have now. Today we have scientific research and the ability to test things and get answers very quickly as to if they would be effective or not, the ancients did not and unfortunately animals suffered on mass. A lot of tablets that we take now for pain, that have plant ingredients, derived from what the ancients found, which is all well and good however when we go to the doctor's we are not prescribed medication that contains tiger's eyes, wolf penis or whatever. If these animal parts are such amazing ingredients and are proven to work why isn't there "breeding farms" for tigers and all these other animals that provide the "magic ingredient"? They could be bred and slaughtered as a systematic process (like we do cattle for meat) to obtain all these fantastic ingredients!

For instance, if some egghead in a lab found a chemical from a female lioness's womb disipitated cancerous cells in humans and lead to the desease being destroyed completely and a full recovery guaranteed would they start breeding farms for lioness's to be systematically bred and slaughtered to obtain the wombs? (Knowing the human nature probably yes) So if all these animal ingredients we have now are so wonderful and amazing why hasn't such a thing been implemented before? It's an oppurtunist market for individuals (parasites) to make money from desparate ill people, the appeal of us humans taking something obscure from an animal, thinking it's going to help our condition reels them in every time, when in actual fact it does jack sh!t except line somebody's pocket with money. Animals, (also some of which could get close to extinction) suffer. Additionally, I think it's a mind over matter thing. If, for instance I contracted a serious illness and somebody said to me "right, take this course of medication. It contains ingredients from a lioness's womb and a wolf's eye, it's guaranteed to help you!" Upon hearing this it wouldn't take me long to be in a different "state" I would be "hightened" into thinking that since the tablet contains these amazing and bizarre ingredients I am going to recover. I am ill and this has given me hope and taken my thinking to a different tier about my illness. Sure enough my condition improves. Now is this because of those "magic ingredients" or simply because I was put into a different "mindset" because of where the origin of these ingredients came from?, which in turn made my brain initiate a certain reaction which aided me to recover anyway. In a way perhaps my brain was duped into thinking this alternative medication would work, which affected my ailment and chemically produced something to help ease my condition from my brain. Perhaps I would have recovered anyway regardless of this so called "medicine"

It's really difficult for me to put into words what I am trying to say here and perhaps somebody will be able to relate in what I am trying to get across. I don't dissaprove of natural medicines, far from it, I have used them. It is far healthier than the tremendous side affects taking human processed drugs can cause and in a lot of cases can make people more even ill. However, if the alternative option involves or derives from any form of animal cruelty or death then it's incorrect and total bullsh!t. It's not proven to work and if it did it still isn't morally correct in my opinion. I eat chicken and fish occasionally (I need the protein for weightlifting) and no other meats. I eat eggs that are produced from ducks that are loved and kept as pets and if I have milk it's the artificial crap. No other dairy derivatives.

[17th Angel]

I think we are all indebted to Mr Penguin for that honest post An saying what needed to be said Woot.

[wil]

I suppose this should once and for all end the human stem cell research debate then yes? ie using animal parts for healing...

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by wil

I suppose this should once and for all end the human stem cell research debate then yes? ie using animal parts for healing...

Examples please. I don't think there is too much emphasis on this in the UK so I don't know much about it. Many thanks.