Christian Interpretation of the OT

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Marsh

So..... I'm looking at the first and second commandments, and I'm not seeing "Love your neighbour as you love yourself," Wil. In fact, I don't see those words anywhere (until the New Testament). Or do I have the wrong 10 commandments?

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. (Deuteronomy 6)

18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19)

[wil]

Originally Posted by Marsh

So..... I'm looking at the first and second commandments, and I'm not seeing "Love your neighbour as you love yourself," Wil. In fact, I don't see those words anywhere (until the New Testament). Or do I have the wrong 10 commandments?

Namast Marsh, and thanx Luna!

The 10 are decidedly Christian...The Jews have 613 commandments in the old testament, we typically focus on the ten.

The shema (the first of the 'two') is to be recited every morning when you rise and every evening before you retire, it is put in the mezzuzah on the door and gates to your house...now that's important.

As I said we Christians (generalization, most, many, it is just that nobody has told us, or someone ommitted part of the truth) forget that Jesus was a Jew and knew the law and was quoting the old testament and tradition. We tend to quote Mathew and forget about Luke and the OT references.

Luke 10 25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]" 28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

So we don't really know which way it went, in Mathew it is recorded that Jesus answered and in Luke the scholar did...but either way, it was nothing new.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Marsh

So..... I'm looking at the first and second commandments, and I'm not seeing "Love your neighbour as you love yourself," Wil. In fact, I don't see those words anywhere (until the New Testament). Or do I have the wrong 10 commandments?

Actually, if you'll notice, the 10 commandments can be divided into two catagories:

Those involving loving the Lord our God:

3(D) "You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4(E) "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5(F) You shall not bow down to them or serve them...

7(I) "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

8(J) "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....

And those involving loving our neighbor as ourselves:

12(O) "Honor your father and your mother,(P) that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

13(Q) "You shall not murder.[c]

14(R) "You shall not commit adultery.

15(S) "You shall not steal.

16(T) "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17(U) "You shall not covet(V) your neighbor’s house;(W) you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s."

Perhaps this is how the two tablets appeared. (Or three if you are Mel Brooks).

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Actually, if you'll notice, the 10 commandments can be divided into two catagories:
Those involving loving the Lord our God:
And those involving loving our neighbor as ourselves:
Perhaps this is how the two tablets appeared. (Or three if you are Mel Brooks).

That is a very good observation. Thank you

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Actually, if you'll notice, the 10 commandments can be divided into two catagories:

Those involving loving the Lord our God:

And those involving loving our neighbor as ourselves:

Perhaps this is how the two tablets appeared. (Or three if you are Mel Brooks).

You'll also note that the other 603 were not on the two tablets, and I think that is significant as well. The ten commandments are not important because Christians say they're important; they're important because God says they're important, or else he would have given the other 603 equal treatment (i.e. a tablet).

The ten commandments are important for a reason, and the reason (I think) is precisely as Dondi has noted: Love God and love your neighbour sum them all up, and while the ideas do appear in the Old Testament, the concept of using them to sum up the Law and the Prophets did not. Jesus was not simply quoting Old Testament law; he was shedding light on the Law's very nature, and while to us as Christians the concept that 613 laws could be followed by two very simple ideals seems elementary, it would have been revolutionary to his followers at the time of his ministry. It certainly is not Jewish thought; otherwise, Jewish people would have accepted Jesus as the messiah, yeah?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Marsh

it would have been revolutionary to his followers at the time of his ministry. It certainly is not Jewish thought; otherwise, Jewish people would have accepted Jesus as the messiah, yeah?

Namaste Marsh but I'm afraid not.

It wasn't revolutionary, as shown in luke the Jewish Scholar when asked by Jesus answered the same. As it is written in the OT that number one commandment recite it when you wake up and retire, keep a copy at your door and your gate and teach your children...

Jesus was not breaking new ground (in this case) he was reciting the law and what was expected to be a correct answer by the pharisee that was asking the question, it was a test and he passed by answering correctly.

And as we know, some of the Jewish people did accept him as the Messiah. Thousands followed him...others did not, just like today.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Marsh but I'm afraid not.

It wasn't revolutionary, as shown in luke the Jewish Scholar when asked by Jesus answered the same. As it is written in the OT that number one commandment recite it when you wake up and retire, keep a copy at your door and your gate and teach your children...

Jesus was not breaking new ground (in this case) he was reciting the law and what was expected to be a correct answer by the pharisee that was asking the question, it was a test and he passed by answering correctly.

And as we know, some of the Jewish people did accept him as the Messiah. Thousands followed him...others did not, just like today.

If it was a widely-accepted practice to sum up the law and the prophets with these two commandments, then why was Jesus persecuted as being a lawbreaker, Wil? You've cited one example (which is kind of interesting considering that we had a discussion not that long ago on the accuracy of the gospels, did we not?) of how one scholar (not lay-person, but scholar-- as in thinks a great deal about things) stated that love your neighbour as yourself is the most important law. An entire gang of Pharisees hounded Jesus for breaking the Sabbath, did they not? Why didn't they understand that what he was doing was out of love?

Answer: They probably did, but the bottom line was that the Law as a whole was considered to be more important.

Moses' teachings were based on upholding the Law, beginning with the Ten Commandments. I don't remember the chapter and verse where he said, "Oh, by the way: Sum all these laws up by loving God with all your heart, and by loving your neighbour as you love yourself."

[wil]

Originally Posted by Marsh

If it was a widely-accepted practice to sum up the law and the prophets with these two commandments, then why was Jesus persecuted as being a lawbreaker, Wil? You've cited one example (which is kind of interesting considering that we had a discussion not that long ago on the accuracy of the gospels, did we not?) of how one scholar (not lay-person, but scholar-- as in thinks a great deal about things) stated that love your neighbour as yourself is the most important law. An entire gang of Pharisees hounded Jesus for breaking the Sabbath, did they not? Why didn't they understand that what he was doing was out of love?

Answer: They probably did, but the bottom line was that the Law as a whole was considered to be more important.

Moses' teachings were based on upholding the Law, beginning with the Ten Commandments. I don't remember the chapter and verse where he said, "Oh, by the way: Sum all these laws up by loving God with all your heart, and by loving your neighbour as you love yourself."

Oh yes, I absolutely agree that we are not discussing proven facts here but the texts as written in the bible. But in those texts it is written, the pharissee tried to trip him up...oops he answered correctly and when Jesus asked another in Luke, low and behold the same answer was given. Is that not proof enough that it was common knowledge?

And the commandments did they start with Moses's 10? I think not. Seems the first could have been in the Garden. But on things Jewish, I consult Jews.

As to your 'answer:' to me they probably wanted him to not work on the Sabbath and honor the commandment out of love they wanted him to fulfill the law. Just like a Christian says when they pray for the poor infidel that won't listen to their preaching, "It's out of love for you brother, I wish you to be saved". I think the text is trying to tell us the pharissees came from that very same place, of thinking they knew it all, and for everybody.

And at the risk of repeating myself according to the bible it wasn't Moses who said but G!d who instructed us to teach that to our children and recite it morning and night...may not to you but seems the authors of the bible thought it pretty important...and hence why Jesus who studied these texts knew it so well.

Back to the OP, which of Jesus desciples and followers weren't Jews? Seems it was a while before Peter had the vision where G!d instructed him to also take the teachings to the gentiles...(the four cornered sheet with all the clean animals mixing with the unclean)

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Marsh

You'll also note that the other 603 were not on the two tablets, and I think that is significant as well. The ten commandments are not important because Christians say they're important; they're important because God says they're important, or else he would have given the other 603 equal treatment (i.e. a tablet).

The ten commandments are important for a reason, and the reason (I think) is precisely as Dondi has noted: Love God and love your neighbour sum them all up, and while the ideas do appear in the Old Testament, the concept of using them to sum up the Law and the Prophets did not. Jesus was not simply quoting Old Testament law; he was shedding light on the Law's very nature, and while to us as Christians the concept that 613 laws could be followed by two very simple ideals seems elementary, it would have been revolutionary to his followers at the time of his ministry. It certainly is not Jewish thought; otherwise, Jewish people would have accepted Jesus as the messiah, yeah?

I think the other 603 commandments are derivative of the 10. Nor were these other 603 "handwritten" by God. I think, for the most part, those 603 are culturally orientated specific to Israel and the Jews. There are simply commandments that won't make sense or have any relevance to the Gentile (unless he converted to a Jew). They weren't meant for them. However, as our Jewish friends on this forum, there is what is called the Seven Noahich Laws that Gentiles ought to follow.

In principle, we need to follow the 10 commandments, however Galatians 3:21 tells us that the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We realize the futility of trying to be perfect simply because our fallen nature as it is tends us to sin. Recall that Paul mentions in Romans 2:14-15 that Gentiles who are without the Law are a law unto themselves. That is, God through our conscience will reveal to us our sinful nature even if we never heard of the 10 Commandments. The point is that we need to realize that we cannot please Him in and of ourselves. We need help.

And that help comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, who is able to break the sinful addictions that bind us. We are to be led by the Spirit who will help us fulfill the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27, Galatians 5:22-23)

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I think the other 603 commandments are derivative of the 10. Nor were these other 603 "handwritten" by God...

In principle, we need to follow the 10 commandments, however Galatians 3:21 tells us that the Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We realize the futility of trying to be perfect simply because our fallen nature as it is tends us to sin. .... The point is that we need to realize that we cannot please Him in and of ourselves. We need help.

I think you're absolutely spot-on, Don. I also think that what Paul is writing about in Galatians is revolutionary for the times. From my understanding, the Pharisees believed that justification came from living up to the 613 precepts of the Law, and yet here's Paul saying that the Law is simply a means of coming to Christ-- Christ, who said that 613 are actually just 2.

Christ, who said that righteousness is a gift, rather than earned wages.

Christ, who was followed by a few Jewish people but apparently hated by more, Wil, or else he would never have been allowed to be handed over for crucifixion.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by wil

And the commandments did they start with Moses's 10? I think not. Seems the first could have been in the Garden. But on things Jewish, I consult Jews.

I'm talking about Mosaic Law, Wil. It indeed begins with the Ten Commandments.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Christ, who said that 613 are actually just 2.

Christ, who said that righteousness is a gift, rather than earned wages.

Christ, who was followed by a few Jewish people but apparently hated by more, Wil, or else he would never have been allowed to be handed over for crucifixion.

Namaste Marsh,

You know if you refuse to do anything but move back and forth on the same square it is a stalemate. How about the Jewish Scholar that told you it was only two?? Can you consider asking your religious leader(s) what they think on this topic. Everytime I do (and believe me, this is one of my favorites, I get to correct folks all the time) They say, they didn't remember Luke, and they forgot they were important Jewish commandments and they see that Jesus was in fact not original in this regard but parroting his teachers...just as they were parroting theirs.

As far as crucifiction goes, most Christians insist without the crucifiction and resurection there would be no Christianity. Jesus told Judas go and do what you must, he did not hold his brother back, and Jesus told G!d in the garden, not my will but thy will.