Christian Mysticism

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by soma

Mysticism is an experience of that unity and love that can't be placed with words so people try to describe the experience or how to obtain it.

If I understand what is at the heart of these discussions, I believe there is much that isn`t explained in the bible in detail, that I think Jesus had knowledge of. Let me throw in some concepts that maybe some of you might find interesting or know, like how prayer works. And let me know if I`m completely off the mark in writing this too.

I`m no expert in these areas, so I`ll just reference a link. There might not be that much information in English to begin with. But I personally find these concepts fascinating in the sense that some things in the bible may make some sense, and not dismissed as something from la la land. I`m just trying to find the details, which could have got lost through time and sharing it.

Kotodama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (a possible explanation of what prayer is)

I`ll have to translate the 6 basic super powers(Jintsuriki in Japanese) mentioned in buddhism.
1. to be anywhere where one wishes (Jesus resurrected).
2. to see anything at any distance or size.
3. to distinguish any sound or voice (Solomon?)
4. to know how others feel.
5. to know anyones past lives.
6. to know when one is not lost (enlightened? not sure).


Does Christian mysticism include these kinds of topics?

TK

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

My understanding from the bible is that water baptism is a petition to God for a clean conscience in our repentance of our sins and asking of forgiveness.

How is this accomplished for an infant who has no knowledge of sin and no appreciation for the need to be forgiven?

Originally Posted by seattlegal

23 He told them, "You will indeed drink My cup. But to sit at My right and left is not Mine to give; instead, it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."

Could "naturally occurring" be referring to "those for whom it has been prepared by My Father?"

I was not thinking of the passage you cited. I was thinking more in terms of Dharma as anything that supports you in your path. It could be a church, it could be a passage from the Bible or a a Buddhist Sutra, and it it could be any natural symbols that point to the Sacred.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

How is this accomplished for an infant who has no knowledge of sin and no appreciation for the need to be forgiven?

This is Shinto basics, but clean water like waterfalls are considered to be a medium that cleans our consiousness?/soul? whatever one is cleansing. So if one would feel the evil in themselves they might be pouring cold water over their heads, in extreme circumstances. You find many Shintoists meditating under waterfalls, trying to gain knowledge. I believe baptism is a tradition that originates from these kinds of traditions.

And infants according to these kinds of theories are still subject to be corrupted to some extent by just existing in our world. I don`t know much about how things work though.

Baptism is a one time thing. But it might be a good idea if Christians thought about what water is more if you`re gonna think about baptism.

TK

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

A Christian can be part of Christendom but is just not of it. The Apostles were in the world but not of it.

We wouldn't recognize a Christian so it is better IMO to say that a Christian would be one who follows in the precepts of Christ. A person who wants to but cannot is the Wretched Man and pre-Christian described by Paul. A person with no interest is a non-Christian.

There are very few Christians but many members of various sects that have become part of the World. IMO it is better to recognize and respect the distinction rather than argue who a Christian may be.

But you don't know who is or is not a Christian, until they touch your life in some way...then you definitely know. And I dare say you don't call them "Christian", but I bet you call them "friend" or something positive along those lines. There is just something about them, that sets them apart (in one's mind).

[soma]

Quahom1, I agree a Christian will make a Muslim a better Muslim, a Hindu a better Hindu, and a Buddhist a better Buddhist. Going to Church and cheating, getting by, and other shading dealings the other 6 days does not make a Christian.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

How is this accomplished for an infant who has no knowledge of sin and no appreciation for the need to be forgiven?

I'm not one for infant baptism, so I can't answer that question.

I was not thinking of the passage you cited. I was thinking more in terms of Dharma as anything that supports you in your path. It could be a church, it could be a passage from the Bible or a a Buddhist Sutra, and it it could be any natural symbols that point to the Sacred.

(Romans 1:20) There is always the possibility of confusion, however.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soma

Quahom1, I agree a Christian will make a Muslim a better Muslim, a Hindu a better Hindu, and a Buddhist a better Buddhist. Going to Church and cheating, getting by, and other shading dealings the other 6 days does not make a Christian.

[quote=soma;176981]and I reveal that Muslims have made me a better Christian, and Hindis have made me a better Christian, and Buddhists have made me pause and reflect on my Christianity, thus forcing me to live it every day, not just Sunday...so they too have made me a better Christian.

The greatest way they have made me a better Christian, is by saying in so many words, or looks, or silence... "show me"...

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

If I understand what is at the heart of these discussions, I believe there is much that isn`t explained in the bible in detail, that I think Jesus had knowledge of. Let me throw in some concepts that maybe some of you might find interesting or know, like how prayer works. And let me know if I`m completely off the mark in writing this too.

I`m no expert in these areas, so I`ll just reference a link. There might not be that much information in English to begin with. But I personally find these concepts fascinating in the sense that some things in the bible may make some sense, and not dismissed as something from la la land. I`m just trying to find the details, which could have got lost through time and sharing it.

Kotodama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (a possible explanation of what prayer is)

I`ll have to translate the 6 basic super powers(Jintsuriki in Japanese) mentioned in buddhism.
1. to be anywhere where one wishes (Jesus resurrected).
2. to see anything at any distance or size.
3. to distinguish any sound or voice (Solomon?)
4. to know how others feel.
5. to know anyones past lives.
6. to know when one is not lost (enlightened? not sure).


Does Christian mysticism include these kinds of topics?

TK

See 1 Corinthians 12-13 (which I think should be one chapter, rather than two chapters) regarding Christian "Spiritual gifts" (mystical abilities,) and how they fit into the greater practice of Christianity.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But you don't know who is or is not a Christian, until they touch your life in some way...then you definitely know. And I dare say you don't call them "Christian", but I bet you call them "friend" or something positive along those lines. There is just something about them, that sets them apart (in one's mind).

1 Cor 13.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

1 Cor 13.

That is a hard one to fathom, because one may not realize they are doing it...not a conscious effort, so to speak...maybe that is why it is so...mystical?

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

See 1 Corinthians 12-13 (which I think should be one chapter, rather than two chapters) regarding Christian "Spiritual gifts" (mystical abilities,) and how they fit into the greater practice of Christianity.

Thanks for these references. Very interesting, it kind of sounds like Zen to me. I`ll look this up, I might have started-off with a different bible, but who is Corinthians because I`ve never heard of him?

FYI, the founder of Aikido (e.g. Stephen Seagal a student) seems to have been an expert in some of the spiritual abilities, in fact that was his goal and he seems to have achieved them. I am yet to confirm of these abilities which partially his living students can do, but supposedly the founder could dodge bullets because the "intent to kill" of his enemies would be projected to him as laser beams before the attack(pulling trigger, machine gun etc..) and he would simply dodge the laser beams and the bullets would follow that beam(he figured this out on the battlefield). He is also noted to teleport, but he only seems to have done it twice publicly as he claimed that it would shorten his life span. Anyways he regularly threw people ten`s of feet, and if he got serious, he`d break bones while he was throwing his students but he hardly ever did that. He seems to have had at least 2 major awakenings that transformed him spiritually even late in his life. At one point after research, I viewed him as the second coming of Christ, but now I think he was a very gifted guy aligned with Christ as well as many others.

Also the Tenri-kyo religion which is respected without fear, which is a modern-Japanese religion, I happen to live with one scholarshipped member and later found out that he was religious. But he told me that anyone could learn how to heal stomache aches in like 30 minutes and they regularly practice that at his religion, which is something again I am yet to confirm.

TK

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is a hard one to fathom, because one may not realize they are doing it...not a conscious effort, so to speak...maybe that is why it is so...mystical?

Compare to the Taoist perspective:

The Taoist sage has no ambitions, therefore he can never fail. He who never fails always succeeds. And he who always succeeds is all- powerful.

{Yeah, I know this is the Christian forum...sorry. }

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

Thanks for these references. Very interesting, it kind of sounds like Zen to me. I`ll look this up, I might have started-off with a different bible, but who is Corinthians because I`ve never heard of him?

1 & 2 Corinthians are letters from Paul to the Christian congregation at Corinth in Greece.

Also the Tenri-kyo religion which is respected without fear, which is a modern-Japanese religion, I happen to live with one scholarshipped member and later found out that he was religious. But he told me that anyone could learn how to heal stomache aches in like 30 minutes and they regularly practice that at his religion, which is something again I am yet to confirm.

TK

Interesting.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

A Christian can be part of Christendom but is just not of it. The Apostles were in the world but not of it.

The great spokesmen of the Perennial Tradition, René Guénon and Frithjof Schuon, regarded as amongst the foremost authorities on the nature of the esoteric, both assert that any esoterism exists within its exoteric complement, and in fact cannot exist apart from it — to fully embrace a given esoterism requires the embrace of its accompanying exotericism.

The argument of Christianity/Christendom is an argument of eso/exotericism. Christianity, however, as both Guenon and Schuon recognised, presents problems in that Christianity is an 'esoterism in plain sight' — it is the esoteric manifest in the exoteric, the ineffible made flesh — and a glance at its doctrine provides sufficient evidence to endorse that claim.

Indeed, the Post-Reformation theologies, determining the possibility of Revelation according to human reason, rejected the notion of Mystery and thus the esoteric dimension. Today the matter is even worse, modern Christian denominations seek to empty Christainity of any objective reality and reduce it to a humanist position.

On the other hand, throughout history various attempts have been made to 'esoterise' orthodox Christianity for the benefit of individuals and elites — the gnostics, the Cathars, the Medieval 'esoteric orders' all claimed a 'secret' source and a hidden doctrine ... until they exhausted themselves in the Romance Movements and the later philosophical relativism of the 20th century. France was a hotbed of competing orders and Guenon earned himself a reputation as the unmasker of false and spurious doctrines.

+++

Orthodox Christian doctrine is unquestionably esoteric in nature, so the idea of 'esoteric Christianity' is a tautology, there are no initiations, no rites and no rituals that equal, let alone supercede, the orthodox Christian Rites.

To seek to separate Christianity from Christendom is akin to making unworldly that which is in the world. There is nothing left but abstractions. The idea of Christianity is not to escape the world but transform it. Artificial esoterisms are anti-traditional and inversions of the Revealed Truth.

As St Paul said:
"Because the creature (Gk: ktsisi implying the physical as well as spiritual) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation (Gk: ktsisi again) and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body (Gk: soma)."
Romans 8:21-23

The Christian takes the world on, and bears the burden in the eyes of others for so doing ... the 'esoteric Christian' seeks to disassociate himself from the world, and be applauded by his audience (in its every esoteric dimension) for so doing.

One is drawn by love to God, the other drawn by love of self.

Thomas

[soma]

I like the post where we as Christians become better Christians learning from Buddhist, Muslims ect. It keeps us from loving ourselves as Christians and forgetting about God.