Christianity minus Paul

juantoo3 · 04-13-2005, 06:56 PM

I am curious, since I have seen the topic brought up from time to time, just what Christianity would look like minus the teachings of Paul. Frankly, Paul has many detractors, but I have yet to see any of them post what Christianity should be, in their view. What is left when we remove the teachings of Paul?

juantoo3 · 04-13-2005, 06:59 PM

The first thing that comes to my mind, is that Christianity would not be carried to, nor have any relevence for, the goyim, the gentiles, the nations. What would be left of the New Testament would be directed soley and only to Messianic Jews.

Bandit · 04-13-2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

The first thing that comes to my mind, is that Christianity would not be carried to, nor have any relevence for, the goyim, the gentiles, the nations. What would be left of the New Testament would be directed soley and only to Messianic Jews.

yep

i think he also gives an example of the church not to judge because he was a murderer of the saints, but God turned him around & he stopped & i do believe he will be in heaven & i want to see him...

celtic_christian · 06-07-2005, 02:43 AM

I always thought that Paul was very proud and snuck his own opinions into his teachings. But, that is also my opinion, so who knows?

juantoo3 · 06-07-2005, 02:46 AM

Kindest Regards, celtic christian, and welcome to CR!

I can appreciate your opinion, however, I am still left wondering what you feel Christianity should be like minus the teachings of Paul?

InLove · 06-07-2005, 04:10 AM

Hello, and Peace to All Here--

Christianity without Paul? Christ did not need Paul, but He called Him. I know that Paul grates on lots of people's nerves. More so than James? I don't know.

There is a big, fancy word that someone has coined to address the "concept" of Christianity in opposition to the teachings of Paul. It is called, to the best of my memory,
" hyperdispensationalism"

Is that longer than "supercalifragilisticexpeali--never mind, no it isn't--I thought I could "speel" that!

I believe that the writings of Paul were and are sincere and true. They are to be taken within the context of the times in which he lived, and they extend into the times in which we live. The Pauline Epistles are so-called because they are historically documented letters he wrote during the time in which he lived.

InPeace,
InLove

JonMarc · 06-07-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

The first thing that comes to my mind, is that Christianity would not be carried to, nor have any relevence for, the goyim, the gentiles, the nations. What would be left of the New Testament would be directed soley and only to Messianic Jews.

i would agree.

i also imagine that christianity without paul would be much easier. perhaps some of the things i struggle with as sin i would not struggle with so much if not for my steadfast belief in the importance of his epistles. it would leave more room for my individual interpretations of the bible and of Jesus' teaching. and given that i do struggle with so much sin daily, left to me the interpretation might not be divinely inspired, but more a collection of practices to better suit and accomodate my lifestyle.

percecution of christians or not, God saw something in paul and was wise (obviously) to knock him off his horse that day in damascus. i for one am very thankful that he was chosen, as his writings are often a source of inspiration for me via a swift self-imposed kick in the butt.

juantoo3 · 06-07-2005, 03:56 PM

Kindest Regards, InLove and JonMarc!

I find myself in agreement with you both. This thread was started as a response to a number of posts arguing against Paul, that his teachings were not part and parcel of the Good News. After hearing a number of people rail against him, I became curious what Christianity would look like without his teachings. As you can see, I got no serious takers, which tells me that those who rail against Paul really haven't much of an idea what Christianity should be like. In other words, they are not particularly "for" anything, they just like to have someone to be "against." Which is sad, in my opinion.

Thanks for your input(s).

path_of_one · 06-07-2005, 06:50 PM

I'm neither for or against Paul. I suppose I'm with Celtic Christian. My intuitive response has always been that Paul struggled with pride and other personal issues (who of us doesn't?) and snuck in a lot of his own interpretations into those letters (naturally, just as we do here). I don't believe the epistles are infallible, but I do think they are very valuable and contain a lot of truth, as well has helping us understand part of the early church.

I'm sure many would think it blasphemous, but Paul was just a person, just like me. He had faith and visions and interpretations of Christ's teachings (which, by the way, hadn't been written down yet when Paul was writing- so he was operating pretty much off of hearsay and his own spiritual experience)... just like me. He had his issues to deal with... just like me. I guess I mostly see Paul as a valuable Christian author, but no more so than St. Francis or Eckhart. Because I don't do the "Bible is infallible" thing, I read Paul differently than some. Paul is a commentary on Jesus' teachings and part of the early church.

Personally, I wouldn't want to get rid of Paul- some of his teachings are my most cherished scriptures and are incredibly beautiful. 1 Cor 13 is one of the most truthful and lovely passages I've ever read. I just read Paul with attention to the history of the early Christian church, Paul's own agenda, and my heart open to the Spirit. I carefully meditate on passages that do not resonate with my own experience of God.

Faithfulservant · 06-07-2005, 08:49 PM

My love for Paul comes from the fact that He sinned against Christ by persecuting Christians... that someone can do something like that have Christ call him and be redeemed...speaks volumes of Christs love and mercy. He loved Jesus and was as bold for Christ as I believe we all need to be. He suffered all throughout his ministry of Christ and remained steadfast in his faith. I know that Christianity could stand without Pauls ministry.. because Christianity is about Christ.. but I believe, as did the apostles in the book of Acts, that Jesus called Paul and I believe that everything Paul said in the bible is from the God.

Bandit · 06-07-2005, 08:56 PM

my experience with God falls right in line with everything that Paul teaches & that experience was way before I even knew who paul really was.

I believe his teaching is indeed infallable & his writings support Jesus & the rest of the apostles & prophets writings 100% & I dont think he even realized his writings would become part of the Word of God when he was writing.
The Bible is one book & one Word & it will stand forever to all generations because i believe it is Gods written Word & God is infallable & does not lie.

path_of_one · 06-07-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

My love for Paul comes from the fact that He sinned against Christ by persecuting Christians... that someone can do something like that have Christ call him and be redeemed...speaks volumes of Christs love and mercy.

Beautiful point, FS.

Quahom1 · 06-08-2005, 06:03 AM

Juan,

In considering how the seven original churches were going every which way but loose, and reflecting upon Paul's personality, and actions, I think it logical that God utilized Paul as a mediator, referee, and organiser. Paul took the "ethereal" concept and presented practical application for Christianity in eveyday living.

Paul is an arbiter.

v/r

Q

Bandit · 06-08-2005, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In considering how the seven original churches were going every which way but loose, and reflecting upon Paul's personality, and actions, I think it logical that God utilized Paul as a mediator, referee, and organiser. Paul took the "ethereal" concept and presented practical application for Christianity in eveyday living.

Paul is an arbiter.

v/r

Q

i think so too. every which way but loose & the same thing is what we see today and as you say, every day living.
so i think Christianity without Paul seems to lead into Christianity without Revelations, Genesies, the book of Acts, the Exodous & half of the things Jesus said... well about 2/3 of the rest of the bible & substitue it for the gods of Jupiter & Neptune & whatever pops off the top of your head, & a little Sophie, dont forget.

The Apostle Paul was full of the Holy Ghost like the rest of them & he was not going to let Jesus down

path_of_one · 06-08-2005, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

so i think Christianity without Paul seems to lead into Christianity without Revelations, Genesies, the book of Acts, the Exodous & half of the things Jesus said... well about 2/3 of the rest of the bible

Why? I don't really get why these are related? Paul wrote epistles, which are really different types of writing than prophecy (Revelations) or mythology/history (and I mean that to be "sacred narrative," not "false"- Genesis, Acts, Exodus, the Gospels).
Maybe I'm just being dense...?