Christianity Subforum Poll

[ardenz]

How many subforums on the head of a pin ?

[Thomas]

I tend to think once we start making distinctions, then we never stop ...

Rather than separate boards, it should be easier for those involved to 'declare an interest' — I try to make it fairly obvious I'm RC, Mee is JW, etc.

But this is not a Catholic Forum, and does not claim to be. And do we then get into all the schools of Buddhism? Of Vedanta and Advaita Vedanta, Zen, Soto Zen ...

I choose to post in the Christianity forum when my postings are orthodox, and on the esoteric or otherwise when it's my own speculations...

+++

Thomas

[InLove]

Hey Everyone--

Alright, then--I decided. Forgive me, those of you who want one board. I'm just not ready to let go of the Lib board yet--at least not with my vote. However, I can manage to be happy and make posts no matter what is decided by the administration or by this poll. I'm sure we will make the best of it no matter the outcome. And if the LC is removed, there really are other places to post and other ways of dealing with sticky issues, perhaps including statements, disclaimers, or requests in the original post of any thread (as I believe lunamoth has pointed out somewhere before). So, I'll punch the card, and then abide by whatever decision is ultimately agreed upon.

InPeace,
InLove

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by InLove

Okay, I have another question which I think will help me decide on how to vote. Does "Esoteric Christianity" describe Christianity that is not necessarily Abrahamic in origen?

Hi InLove — two answers:
1 - No. Christ taught an esoterism from the word go, it's focus is on the spirit, not the letter, but the spirit of the Torah, the Law, not the spirit of the Pali Canon or the Vedas ...

'Esoteric' simply means 'more interior' — my insight into Christian symbolism is an esoterism, but I have met Christrians who's insights I find enlightening, more esoteric than my own, but Christian esoterism is a journey into the heart of the Christian Revelation ... nowhere else ... this is properly and traditionally called mystagogia. I am among a number of Catholics I know in the UK, US and Europe working towards that end, of bringing this out into the mainstream — that the Christian journey of learning does not stop when we leave Sunday School.

2 - What I do not believe in, and what I will steadfastly refute, is an 'Esoteric Christianity' that is elitist, that holds itself apart from the 'common run' and regards itself as separate, distinct and special, with a body of knowledge unique to itself — this is fundamentally born of a not-love of one's neighbour...

And I challenge anyone to show me anything more esoteric than the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

+++

Originally Posted by InLove

And if so, how inclusive is it of streams like Christian Druidry, Native American Spirituality, etc.? That may sound like a crazy question to some, but maybe someone can attempt a response?

Native American Spirituality is its own thing, as is Buddhism, Daoism, etc., and it is complete and entire to itself, and has no need to be supplemented from without, nor can one tradition supplement another, without inevitable syncretism and confusion. I do not know what 'Christian druidry' comprises of. Celtic Christianity is another matter.

As a Christian, I can see the trace of God in all other traditions, and as a Christian, I believe that anyone who loves the good, loves God, even if s/he does not know it, or speaks of it in other terms.

It is Catholic Doctrine that all those who strive for good are beloved of God. It is for Him to weigh the heart, not us...

Thomas

[InLove]

Thank you, Thomas.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Dor

No but he definately belongs in this forum no matter who all comes in here.

...of course.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

(although they're all sub-forums as per the structure of the website)

s.

Good point. I had a symbolic over-ride of computer semantics.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Esoteric' simply means 'more interior' — my insight into Christian symbolism is an esoterism, but I have met Christrians who's insights I find enlightening, more esoteric than my own, but Christian esoterism is a journey into the heart of the Christian Revelation ... nowhere else ... this is properly and traditionally called mystagogia. I am among a number of Catholics I know in the UK, US and Europe working towards that end, of bringing this out into the mainstream — that the Christian journey of learning does not stop when we leave Sunday School.

yee haw. How do you read the difference between Esoteric and Metaphysical?

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Metaphysics is primarily a philosophical commentary on esoterism which is primarily a mythopeic commentary ... so I would say metaphysics seeks always what lies behind the veil of appearance?

Hey — was that 'yee haw' me sounding big-headed?

Thomas

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Thomas

2 - What I do not believe in, and what I will steadfastly refute, is an 'Esoteric Christianity' that is elitist, that holds itself apart from the 'common run' and regards itself as separate, distinct and special, with a body of knowledge unique to itself — this is fundamentally born of a not-love of one's neighbour...

But wait a minute. This is exactly the form (and practice) of "Christianity" that I - and so many other people, apparently - have been seeking to escape!
It seems I have not tried hard enough.

And some feel the severance, the exile, must be complete - while others simply prefer to drain the murky bathwaters. (I knew that Christ child was in there, somewhere! )

`Liberal' (Christians/Christianity) seems the proper term, imho, for folks who fit into the latter category. But, how awkward to need to split Christianity into `Traditional' vs. anything else. Why not Orthodox vs. Reformed Judiasm, and Sunni vs. Shi'a Islam?

Esoteric, Mystical, New Age, etc. - whether referring to Christianity or not, can certainly fit into the current `Alternative' category, but such a thing as `Alternative Christianity' just doesn't mean much - as Snoopy pointed out.

And Thomas, I will be the first to defend the notion that every single major religion has its exoteric and its esoteric aspects - each of which are really only definable one in terms of the other. Just don't pretend that there aren't esotericists (with no additional qualifying label needed) of any and every exoteric religious interest/tradition/practice (and NONE) ... who MUST BE BOXED into the definition you provide for "a Christian esoterism." And don't insist that, "oh, well - then they must be participants in a Buddhist esoterism, a Sufi esoterism, etc."

Such, at best, is your own opinion/experience, and is begging the question!!!

In the same way that there exists a Christian Ecumenism, or Ecumenical Movement, so too there exists a worldwide effort toward Ecumenism between all religions.

And just as within Christianity, the idea is NOT to "level the playing field," remove all denominational differences, and define what Christianity means for everyone ... neither do those who believe in religious universalism - or certainly religious pluralism - believe that all differences are irrelevant, or meaningless at the individual level, or even in terms of denominations, and religions, as a whole.

How does any of this get us closer to what might be best in terms of administrative/organizational changes at CR? It just comes back to Snoopy's point regarding civil discussion ... and also to what might be the agenda which any particular person may be bringing to the table.

There was a great thread about this (agendas) recently, I thought ... or maybe I just imagined it. I can't find it, at any rate, and I wish I could put my finger on it right now. `Dialogue about dialogue' was good, but I thought there was another about motivations for being here, or something. Perhaps I interpreted it out of context ... oh well ...

Peace,

~andrew

[China Cat Sunflower]

An analogy! Everyone loves an analogy, right?

Analogy: Imagine that this forum is about cars instead of religion. I know this will offend at least on person, but let's just say that Christianity is now the Chevrolet board. Maybe Abrahamic is American Cars, and Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler are the sub forums. Are you with me so far?

There are Chevy purists kinda like traditionalists or conservatives. But there are many kinds of Chevy enthusiasts beside people who want everything absolutely stock. And there are bound to be people who've had a crummy experience with Chevy, or think Ford rules Chevy sucks, or are running a Chevy engine in some other brand of car, or are looking for info on how to get parts for older models, or are interested in mods, tips, and tricks.

Now think: would you want to participate in a Chevy Forum where purists were given any kind of special status? I mean, is it a forum about Chevy's and all things Chevrolet, or an old boy club for purists?

I don't understand why the Christianity board isn't purely about Christianity. Factions really stink.

[Faithfulservant]

I voted to remove lib and make it all one Christianity forum. My reason is that I hope we can use places like the lounge to gather without labels and differences..

With everyone coming here.. It gives me a bigger audience to share my faith with

I never wanted to liberal Christianity forum.. I think it just further divided the group than it already was with all the labels.

I will STILL have issues with people that claim Christianity is without a Christ centered salvation. I will have issues in a Christianity without Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrection 3 days after.. I will still have issues with a Christianity without Jesus as King of Kings Lord of Lords and the great I AM that was before Moses. I will have issues with cafeteria style Christianity that doesnt believe the bible is the living word of God...Im sorry but thats just how it is.. But thats me and Im not going to compromise on that.. but I think theres a diverse community here and we have so many wonderful people that I think we can have heated discussions and still care about each other.

Right?

Right

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

With everyone coming here.. It gives me a bigger audience to share my faith with


Right?

Right

Right on!

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Metaphysics is primarily a philosophical commentary on esoterism which is primarily a mythopeic commentary ... so I would say metaphysics seeks always what lies behind the veil of appearance?

Hey — was that 'yee haw' me sounding big-headed?

I can go with everything but the always...I see metaphysics as not only reading the literal but also the layers...an exploration of both and the combination thereof...beyond the physical literal appearance.

naw the yee haw was appreciation of your studies.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I voted to remove lib and make it all one Christianity forum. My reason is that I hope we can use places like the lounge to gather without labels and differences.. ... I will STILL have issues with people that claim Christianity is without a Christ centered salvation. I will have issues in a Christianity without Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrection 3 days after.. I will still have issues with a Christianity without Jesus as King of Kings Lord of Lords and the great I AM that was before Moses. I will have issues with cafeteria style Christianity that doesnt believe the bible is the living word of God...Im sorry but thats just how it is.. But thats me and Im not going to compromise on that.. but I think theres a diverse community here and we have so many wonderful people that I think we can have heated discussions and still care about each other.

Right?

Right, but I don't think they always need to be heated. I have no need to toss your belief in anything, I just want to be able to discuss everything. No sacred cows, I'm not cutting down the cross or calling it a stave or saying it didn't happen...But I want to discuss it with people that think any of that or all of that. There is one big reason to do that in the Christian forum vs. the Abrahamic or Comparative, or Esoteric...because we are discussing Christianity and things in regards to the lives and times of Jesus...

Do inconsistencies in the bible bother me, no, does it bother me that someone selected the books 1600 years ago and we haven't decided to review it...when everything, everything else has marched on?? uh, yes.

Does it bother me that it appears the 50% of Christians still think the bible indicates Mary Magdelene was a whore? Yes, it shows where we as a group are in this exploration. And the main reason we stay stagnated in the past is because we aren't willing to question... Which is the same reason we create greedy televangelists, and pedophile priests...because we refuse to question...He's a man of the cloth, it couldn't be.

Can we together as a group and seriously explore the stories we hold sacred and see how whether they emit light or stand up to it? Can we decide to no longer allow anyone to hide behind a robe, a collar or a bible and just believe whatever pablum they promote because they or someone else decided they were worthy?

As discussed how many Pagantypeprophets who could easily be the troubled Abraham or Ezekial...do we not listen to because we feel they aren't up to our respect...before we've even heard them?

I'm ready to be one big happy family...as long as we start with love, and decide we want to nurture this garden, and allow everyone to grow...

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I voted to remove lib and make it all one Christianity forum. My reason is that I hope we can use places like the lounge to gather without labels and differences..

With everyone coming here.. It gives me a bigger audience to share my faith with

I never wanted to liberal Christianity forum.. I think it just further divided the group than it already was with all the labels.

I will STILL have issues with people that claim Christianity is without a Christ centered salvation. I will have issues in a Christianity without Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrection 3 days after.. I will still have issues with a Christianity without Jesus as King of Kings Lord of Lords and the great I AM that was before Moses. I will have issues with cafeteria style Christianity that doesnt believe the bible is the living word of God...Im sorry but thats just how it is.. But thats me and Im not going to compromise on that.. but I think theres a diverse community here and we have so many wonderful people that I think we can have heated discussions and still care about each other.

Right?

Right

Hmm...

Matthew 10
Christ Brings Division

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Luke 12
Christ Brings Division

49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”