Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

[AndrewX]

I know you, Thomas, well enough ... and I know your game - not every move, but enough to recognize the pattern, increasingly well.

You will deny, out of pride and pure vanity that our similarities - both for good and for ill - are greater than our differences, yet it is to a great extent due to our being too close for comfort, and because we have these similarities, that we do not get along.

You have your path, I have mine. Each encourages its followers to learn to forgive, but for my own part I have found it especially difficult to practice what the Buddha meant by Right Memory. I have wondered sometimes, besides looking through your aura (as if it were a lens) into the Roman Catholic Church as a whole, have I fixed my gaze - even unawares unto myself - upon something that should not be receiving my focus?

Just because you do not recognize the pre-existence of the Soul ... does not mean that I fail to recognize such. I certainly don't need your acceptance, your blessing, or your faith - or that of the Roman Catholic Church - to have the insights that I have had into the subject (reality, nature, modus operandi) of reincarnation.

You can certainly hang around and remind people, until you turn blue in the face that the Roman Catholic Church, the `we' as you put it, does not yet officially recognize that all humans Souls experience the cycle of reincarnation ... yet I will also hang around, and make sure that it is understood that plenty of Gnostic, Esoteric and mystically-oriented Christians do believe in, and accept, the teaching of Reincarnation. Many of these same individuals care not one whit what the RCC happens to say on the matter!

And I will happily argue the case, that in fact, Christ did teach this noble and liberating doctrine, without which a deeper understanding of ourselves, of our God, of the Soul and of each other ... is not possible. Not that one must believe in rebirth in order to be a true Christian, or a good Christian ... but one DOES have that option. And in time, we shall all come to it, in this life - or in another, subsequent incarnation.

St. Paul knew this, as did St. John. Ephesians 4:13, and Revelations 3:12 are proof enough for those with ears to hear, and eyes to see ...

Are we going around in circles?

Yes indeed, Thomas, we most certainly are. That's 95% of what I'm trying to say. And you're as slave to the cycle as I am - even largely for a lot of the same reasons.

To BREAK the cycle ... hmmmm. Something about an Eightfold Path ... did Christ, perhaps, have a similar set of indications? Something about two Commandments, summarizing the Mosiac Ten ... something about a Golden Rule?

You see, sooner or later, somewhere, somehow - and for some-why - someone must say, THE BUCK STOPS HERE.

I, for one, am grateful that Brian has allowed our dialogue to continue, even if heated at times. I feel I owe him a great debt, and you, Thomas, for teaching me quite a bit - even if by way of reminder - that sometimes this is EXACTLY the way in which heated arguments must come to a close.

The buck stops HERE.

We can actually end it, with a snap of the fingers, and the right kind of decision will withdraw pretty much all of the usual astral & lower mental energy from flowing into the well-worn, unpleasant channels. Both of us have this ability ... hmmm.

So long as we do not pretend that all we are interested in is making these minor, academic points ... and being sure we represent our respective organizations.

Why, yes I do realize, Thomas, that you and a good many Christians are happy marching to the beat of a well-practiced drummer. You never tire of reminding me of this fact, as if numbers alone were somehow what this is all about. Might makes Right, n'est pas?

What I know, is that what is True is seldom popular! Those who come to show the Way, and to suggest that things are NOT quite what the masses (sic!) have come to blindly accept and believe ... usually pay the price!

WE pay, often with our lives, sometimes simply with unpopularity, yet there is also calumny, ridicule, slander and fear ... all the typical trappings that go with your Witch-Hunts ... and if need be, if it is the custom of the time, we experience the crucifixions and the stonings.

It is a testament to the progress of two thousand years, to the accomplishments of the World Teacher when He was here before ... AND to His Presence among us now - that we can even have this discussion, and that I am relatively safe from the usual backlash, suppression, and oppression from those who do not agree.

Deliver me, Oh Lord,

From the desire of being esteemed,
From the desire of being loved,
From the desire of being honored,
From the desire of being praised,
From the desire of being preferred,
From the desire of being consulted,
From the desire of being approved,
From the desire of being popular,
From the fear of being humiliated,
From the fear of being despised,
From the fear of suffering rebukes,
From the fear of being calumniated,
From the fear of being forgotten,
From the fear of being wronged,
From the fear of being ridiculed,
From the fear of being suspected.

- Mother Teresa

Strip away the blind creeds and the human dogmas ... and what you have left, if it appeals to the heart, as well as the mind, will be true religion.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I know you, Thomas, well enough ... and I know your game - not every move, but enough to recognize the pattern, increasingly well...

Good. Should anyone else be unclear, let me present the doctrine under which I labour:
"All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work ... Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. For there shall be a time when they will not endure sound doctrine but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry."
2 Timothy 3:15-16; 4:5.

If you imagine I have any other agenda, you are mistaken.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You will deny, out of pride and pure vanity that our similarities - both for good and for ill - are greater than our differences, yet it is to a great extent due to our being too close for comfort, and because we have these similarities, that we do not get along.

Au contraire old chum, you claim often and loudly to be my better in every respect.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You have your path, I have mine. Each encourages its followers to learn to forgive, but for my own part I have found it especially difficult to practice what the Buddha meant by Right Memory.

Then I pray that if such is your way, you might find the strength to do so.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I have wondered sometimes, besides looking through your aura (as if it were a lens) into the Roman Catholic Church as a whole, have I fixed my gaze - even unawares unto myself - upon something that should not be receiving my focus?

I suggest the instrument is at fault, in light of your admission above.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Just because you do not recognize the pre-existence of the Soul ... does not mean that I fail to recognize such.

You are free to choose to recognise what you wish ... as am I ... I only ask that you respect my rights according to your own.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I certainly don't need your acceptance, your blessing, or your faith - or that of the Roman Catholic Church - to have the insights that I have had into the subject (reality, nature, modus operandi) of reincarnation.

Then why all this fuss?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You can certainly hang around and remind people, until you turn blue in the face that the Roman Catholic Church, the `we' as you put it, does not yet officially recognize that all humans Souls experience the cycle of reincarnation ...

Well at least my efforts are beginning to bear fruit ... at least you now recognise that reincarnation has never been part of Christian Doctrine.
The next step is to realise it never will be.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

yet I will also hang around, and make sure that it is understood that plenty of Gnostic, Esoteric and mystically-oriented Christians do believe in, and accept, the teaching of Reincarnation.

That depends on what measure one is using to detemine who/what is a "Gnostic, Esoteric and mystically-oriented Christians" — I assume in this instance that you have taken it upon yourself to determine who is who?

If you ask me, I would come up with a list according to my Tradition.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Many of these same individuals care not one whit what the RCC happens to say on the matter!

Then I wish, if you respect them at all, you follow their example.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

And I will happily argue the case, that in fact, [I]Christ did teach this noble and liberating doctrine,

Then present your evidence, do.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

St. Paul knew this, as did St. John.

Well surely the obvious answer is, if such is the case, why is it not Christian doctrine? If they knew it, and taught it, then it would be, wouldn't it? Why would we fo to all the bother of inventing something else?

Thank you for the Scriptural references, btw, they give me the chance to present our teaching on the matter. I wil say, however, that it is a common error to treat a verse in isolation from the text, and the text in isolation from the rest of Scripture, as i hope the following demonstrates.
To take Ephesians as an example:

"Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ: That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive. But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in charity."

Careful consideration of Ephesians 4:13 through to verse 16 signifies not reincarnation at all, but another order of existence altogether, resurrection in Christ Jesus. This points to the Christian teaching of 'the Mystical Body of Christ':

"For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread. For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body: So also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. For the body also is not one member, but many." 1 Corinthians 12:12-14

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Are we going around in circles?

You might be. I am standing on the same spot, bangin' the same ol' drum.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Yes indeed, Thomas, we most certainly are. That's 95% of what I'm trying to say. And you're as slave to the cycle as I am - even largely for a lot of the same reasons.

Pray speak for yourself.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I, for one, am grateful that Brian has allowed our dialogue to continue, even if heated at times. I feel I owe him a great debt, and you, Thomas, for teaching me quite a bit - even if by way of reminder - that sometimes this is EXACTLY the way in which heated arguments must come to a close.

No need to thank me, I am just following my vocation. (You must take responsibility for what damage you inflict upon yourself.) Thank you for the opportunity to present the reality of Catholic Doctrine ... and don't worry about the heat, when I stand within the cover of my Tradition, I am covered and preserved from all harm ... there! a gift if you will ... a hint at one of the more occult aspects concerning the occasion of the incorruptible relics of our saints ...

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Why, yes I do realize, Thomas, that you and a good many Christians are happy marching to the beat of a well-practiced drummer. You never tire of reminding me of this fact, as if numbers alone were somehow what this is all about. Might makes Right, n'est pas?

I am a Catholic, marching to the beat of a Catholic drum. why this should make you wonder, I am still at a loss to discern ...

Originally Posted by AndrewX

What I know, is that what is True is seldom popular! Those who come to show the Way, and to suggest that things are NOT quite what the masses (sic!) have come to blindly accept and believe ... usually pay the price!

Oh I see, in which case I am happy to number myself with your 'blind' masses ... they're example through the ages is good enough for me.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

WE pay, often with our lives, sometimes simply with unpopularity, yet there is also calumny, ridicule, slander and fear ... all the typical trappings that go with your Witch-Hunts ... and if need be, if it is the custom of the time, we experience the crucifixions and the stonings.

Yes it is true ... in fact more Christians are dying for their faith now then ever before ... something, luckily, the Theosophy Society has never had to undergo.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

It is a testament to the progress of two thousand years, to the accomplishments of the World Teacher when He was here before ... AND to His Presence among us now - that we can even have this discussion, and that I am relatively safe from the usual backlash, suppression, and oppression from those who do not agree.

And yet here I am, bearing the "backlash, suppression, and oppression" from one who does not agree to let me believe as I choose to believe...

Originally Posted by AndrewX

[INDENT]Deliver me, Oh Lord,...[INDENT]- Mother Teresa

Frankly, for one who holds the Catholic Faith in such obvious contempt, to quote a Catholic Saint at me, presumably another one of your 'blind masses' marching to the beat of our 'well-practiced drummer', I find contradictory, objectionable and offensive ...

I say again — if you have material evidence to support your claims against my faith, present it, and i shall answer for it if I can,
otherwise please do me the honour of leaving me, and mine, alone.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Strip away the blind creeds and the human dogmas ... and what you have left, if it appeals to the heart, as well as the mind, will be true religion.

If only that were true ... too often, what's left is one's own fancies and opinions on the matter ...

Thomas

[AndrewX]

Because I have been taught to suffer fools gladly in many lifetimes, sometimes by the same Master, sometimes by yet another, I will tolerate you and your egotism, Thomas ... and I even welcome your posts. I am moved by the spirit of patience itself, knowing that I must not only practice patience, but master it - along with every other human virtue. You provide me with excellent opportunity along these lines, and I am grateful!

Your beliefs, your practices and your choices for yourself - when it comes to religion - are all up to you. I say this again, because whether or not you post to an online discussion forum, these are all subject to change ... without any of us ever knowing it, and without some of us caring in the least.

But as soon as you come to a forum, and post your understandings and speculations, your automatically invite discussion, and it remains an option for those of us who know better to make plain that this is so. How I go about that will be - to a considerable extent - up to me. Thus I say again:

I know Christians, plenty, who believe in Reincarnation. No Roman Catholics come to mind. There may be a reason for that. One good friend, from college days, was a devout and rather pious Catholic, truly of pure heart and sound mind ... and I continue to know him today as a person of great virtue - as well as a non-believer in Reincarnation.

He is not, however, a pompous ass, full of himself, and convinced that he knows more about Roman Catholic Church history than the Pope himself! Nor does he presume to go around telling other Catholics or Christians what they should or should not believe. Wow, it seems these are ALL desirable qualities ... and things that other folks here who PROFESS themselves to be Christian (or Catholic) could emulate!

Now, that same individual - and others Catholic friends of mine, as also Christian friends of various denominations - would not hesitate to express their faith, including some of the main articles of which that faith consists, if asked ... and perhaps even on such a forum as this one, if the opportunity presented itself. But I will repeat ... NONE of these individuals, Christian and Catholic, feel that it is their right, or that it is their need, to sit around telling other people what to believe, what is or is not Catholic/Christian, etc. Oh, for that most serious of the deadly sins ...

I will not presume to do the same, with regard to Theosophy, or esotericism, or Gnosticism, or Islam, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or the indigenous religions of North & South America ... Australia, etc. But, dear friend, you will find that I will not hesitate to speak out, when those such as yourself DO so presume ... and when I see that you are up to your old tricks again, of trying to play RELIGIOUS POLICEMAN - more specifically, Policeman for Roman Catholicism and for all of Christianity.

Surely it is understandable that someone with so much learning as yourself will feel the irresistable inclination to take every opportunity available to point out just exactly what is advocated or taught by the Roman Catholic authorities, experts, Church Doctors, pontiffs, prelates, popes and so forth, in damn near every circumstance and situation in which we can find ourself. I impatiently await your upcoming post on just how we must butter our bread in the Roman Catholic manner in order to be accepted into Heaven ... and I fully expect to see no fewer than fifteen lengthy quotations from fifteen different learned Doctors on this matter, if you expect me to give your performance any serious consideration.

And thus you see the absurdity - for some of us - of much that you say and do. Learning a bit about Roman Catholic Church history is one thing; I, for one, was inundated about two years ago ... and any real interest that I might have had, has fairly well been pushed wayyyyyy off to the side, owing largely to the realization that I have perhaps been fortunate in meeting the people I have met, and in making the Catholic friends that I have made - since apparently, there are just as many folks out there who will seize every opportunity available to rub other people's face in their own religion ... no different, really, then having Jesus shoved down my throat by the proselytizers of any other demonination (sic).

But Thomas, as there are apparently folks at C-R who smile upon your endeavors, and who do enjoy these contributions you make - perhaps because you have not thoroughly trashed their own Episcopalian, or Muslim, or Jewish choice of faith, practice and lifestyle in the same way you have slandered the Founders of the modern Theosophical Movement ... and trashed Theosophy ... do carry on!

Indeed, I know you shall, and I am newly committed to learning PATIENCE from you, old friend ... for you are a Master Teacher, in this area - and one of the many things we must do, as esotericists (if not also as students of Life in general), is to learn from our enemies ... especially once we begin to recognize that the Master will appear to us THROUGH our enemies, every bit as Truly as via the Beauty of the rosebush, or in the Face of the Christ Himself.

So you see, while you are standing atop the pew, shouting your confessions and telling us all what is and what is not `Real Christianity' ... I will just sit back down, and take a deep breath ... after all, it's going to be awhile! There will be plenty of opportunity to learn - and even master - this virtue, as patience is a weak spot for me ... and putting up with you is just what the doctor ordered.

Namaskar,

~Andrew

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes it is true ... in fact more Christians are dying for their faith now then ever before ... something, luckily, the Theosophy Society has never had to undergo.

An excellent point, Thomas, and one that underscores the main point of this thread ... although you are only half right.

Karma follows groups, as well as individuals. And Christians slaughtered Muslims by the thousands during the medieval Crusades ... as well as vice versa. This karma has not yet played itself out - although you are quite in the middle of it, as a Catholic (in this lifetime) ... just as I am very much in the middle of it, due to past associations (in a previous lifetime).

But as for members of the Theosophical Society, and Movement, present & past ... I'm afraid your assessment of the situation is quite incorrect. If you knew a bit more about the history of the souls involved - and their previous lifetimes- you wouldn't be so quick to judge ... or at least, you'd have to retract your statement that members have not died for their beliefs.

What happened to Cagliostro, to Hypatia, and to Giordano Bruno - just to name a few! Hmmm ...

No, no - not only have many Theosophists (in the broader sense, from even 2600 years ago and more) died for the Cause, but plenty have died at the hands of the Church, the Grand Inquisition ... and for this, I'm afraid the Karma has not yet fully revisited you (the Catholic Church, that is). Time will tell how things work themselves out, but what we do not need, is another tired old tale about how the RCC is FREE of all blame and responsibility in these matters - and how you will simply wash your hands of the possibility of even hearing about any such involvement!

A wiser man would simply say hmmm, and ask himself - what are the possible repercussions, then?

But I do not know ... and I'm not sure I want to speculate!

In the meantime, do carry on, Thomas. I haven't had my lesson in patience for today!

[cyberpi]

I think Karma is the matters from heaven on earth, and I think it is hell when the matters from earth get into heaven.

It looks to me like the resurrection-ist values his matter and the reincarnation-ist values what matters. So, woe to the resurrection-ist and praise to the reincarnation-ist.

But it sounds like the reincarnated lives on earth while the resurrected lives in heaven. So, it sucks to be the reincarnated and it is kudos for the resurrected.

This probably sounds complicated then, but I'd rather be a resurrected reincarnation-ist than a reincarnated resurrection-ist.

[AndrewX]

cyberpi,

It would be a mistake to say that folks such as myself want to be born on Earth, again & again. Nor do the Great Ones and Bodhisattvas. I may be many, many lifetimes away from Their spiritual accomplishments, but what I can do is to go ahead and start making decisions, and live my life in a way that puts others' needs first, and my own desires second. This actually parallels the Path which all of the Great Ones have taken, and has enormous influence upon my present, and immediately forthcoming reincarnations.

There are many differences between students (disciples) of the Masters and the Great Ones Themselves, but they are essentially differences of degree, and not of kind. One main difference of accomplishment that should be noted, however, is that Earth's Spiritual Hierarchy consists of Teachers (and Adepts) who HAVE freed themselves from the Wheel of Rebirth - through many, many lifetimes of hard (but Joyous) Work and self-Sacrifice.

Disciples and aspirants who pledge themselves, do so in accordance with the understanding that we are honor-bound (and required) to fulfil our karma here upon the planet ... but the Great Ones take into consideration the sincerety of our pledge - as Souls (and not as personalities) - and certain adjustments are made, if our Service and motivations are demonstrated as being sincere. In effect, we have some of our karma set aside, and some of this karma can also be worked through in Group format, since this is how all true disciples are beginning to function in the New Era. This is the Path of Initiation for Aquarius, as differing from the Individual(istic) approach of Pisces.

But that karma which is temporarily allayed does not disappear. The disciple must still deal with it, and traditionally this karma is hastened, or ripened, with full acceptance by the Soul - and hopefully also the aspiring personality - so that one's Service can be increasingly intensified. So, Nick may describe our goal as the getting rid of our personal karma, before we can proceed past a certain point on the path, and I think that is correct. I just point out that another method is to pledge oneself - which is done lifetime after lifetime - and in this way, the Masters know (as They study our lifetimes from the angle of SOUL) which students are the more sincere. Thus They employ special measures at this point, not to assist us individually, but so that as disciples our Service in the world can become more effective SOONER rather than later, in helping to alleviate suffering and assist Humanity in this difficult phase of transition.

But in both cases, the disciple still must deal with his/her own karma, one way or another, and my real point is that we do not WANT to be reborn, per se ... as if this is what the GOAL and Purpose of evolution upon this planet is all about. For the Christian, the goal has been presented as getting into Heaven. And for many people, this is all that matters. It certainly appears very selfish, or self-centered when you consider that the Eastern tradition teaches of beings - accomplished Yogins and Bodhisattva (Tulkus, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition), who voluntarily reincarnate, often at great personal sacrifice - solely in order to assist a suffering Humanity.

But then, we all can identify with the sufferings of the world, and of our sufferings and hardships as Souls experiencing incarnation. Some of just don't accept the indoctrination - which INSISTS that we not question matters as difficult or complicated as Rebirth - and we prefer to study what hundreds, and thousands, of wise authors have had to say on this matter, throughout the ages: especially when so many of these have been Christian Mystics and Saints, revered and respected followers of Christ of every branch and type of the Christian tradition, even to the point of sticking to their guns once the Church has excommunicated them ...

So I just wonder, do those who fight so hard to insist that Christianity has no room for the Law of Cause and Effect, of Sowing and of Reaping ... do they perhaps struggle so hard with this most basic and Universal Law & Divine instruction - because they themselves can't bear to ponder the idea that they, too, must return to incarnation, or is it just the same-old, same-old battle for ideas, in which they wish to see theirs dominate, irrespective of their veracity! They apparently forget, gloss over, and ignore the following passages, again & again & again - else seek, with the usual wrangling, to make them fit what has already been formulated within their minds - into unyielding, inflexible crystallizations of fact ...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. (Mark 4:22-25)

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelations 3:11-13)

In order to hear with the ear of the Spirit, there is another type of hearing (and of understanding), which must be stilled - and even set aside. Yet some will say that all we must do is pick up a Bible, open its pages, and read the printed words in order to have all the Wisdom that God makes available to mankind. They would do well to read these passages from Mark, again. And so, too, would the learned do well to attend to Mark 4:25. Or shall pride be the foundation of our New Church? Pride, and simple, childish denial ...

[AndrewX]

I would add that as I see it, Christ came to teach us Joy in Service ... and Brotherhood, which is founded upon Right Human Relations. All else, is incidental.

Yet curiously, this is not how He is remembered (or imagined). Instead, there is much talk about Heaven, and about how we can leave this world with promises of a future REWARD ...

... and I will ask you - Reward for what?

Thus I tell you, if you cannot agree with Christ's Purpose here as being primarily to help alleviate suffering, to help teach Humanity the WAY whereby we may do this ... and thus to manifest `Heaven on Earth' as much as to also lift our earthly focus (Consciousness) Heavenward ... then I think you might have missed the point altogether!

How many who call themselves Christian would give up their `seat' ... their spot ... in Heaven, if asked to do so by Christ & by your God, in order to return to incarnation here upon the planet, in order to help your Christian AND NON-CHRISTIAN BROTHERS - and to lessen their sufferings?

Nevermind, for a moment, that this is not how you believe it happens. I realize that. But you must be willing to ask yourself the what-ifs, as some are willing & even glad to do. Else, I submit that you have not understood the cited passages from Mark ch.4 in the least.

But if you can do this bit of pondering, even if you feel yourself saying and insisting, again & again, "But I don't want to come back, but I don't want to return to this suffering" ... ahh, THEN you'll understand what some of us do not even really question - just due to our discoveries about life, and our realization that this is part of the ABC of `how things work.'

We recognize fully that the modern teaching in Western traditions has ceased to uphold the original instruction in this area ... and that an easy way to Salvation has, unfortunately, become the de facto presentation. But we also know that it is not de jure. We know, because we have plenty of evidence (a lot of us), and this comes from six different sides, consisting of everything from circumstantial and inferential, to clear, direct and incontrovertible.

So what does one do, with such awareness, as fully desiring as any of you, to find a `Heaven' of bliss, and of freedom from unnecessary pain & suffering, as well as a place or state of being wherein there is Justice - and not this earthly travesty of God's Kingdom, of God's Order and of God's PLAN ... for our little planet?

I'll tell you what we don't do, because we CAN'T do ... and that is to GIVE UP. No matter how beaten down you may feel, how outnumbered (how many is it now, of you folks who insists there is no Rebirth?), and no matter how much opposition or oppression there is - to what you know is right ... you must not give up!

But what you know is (or as) right, if you will be honest with yourself, is not always what you THINK you know, as right. What you know, or what you believe - and thus somehow know (even if inexplicably how, since books alone do not reveal The Truth) - is that there WAS a Great Teacher called the Christ, and that there WAS a Minisitry, with certain ends in mind ... cut short, unfortunately, because the world was not ready, and the existing `church' - and status quo - would not have it.

Christ's Mission today remains much the same, yet the world has changed, in some ways ... being a global village that is just learning about itself, and starting to make global decisions that will affect us all. The old values will no longer suffice, for increasing numbers of people, because they require answers and explanations that jibe with what Humanity as learned in 2000 years - via science, via increases in technology, and via exchange of ideas between cultures & societies around the globe.

Sadly, there are some individuals - and groups (religious and politically-oriented, or ideological) - which still insist, "Our ideas are the RIGHT ones ... our ideas are THE ONLY right ones." And these outworn attitudes will cease. There is no place in the global village for such excess of zeal, and such separativeness.

So the Christian does NOT have to accept Reincarnation, simply because lots of other people do, or even because many other Christians are now coming to consider the idea ... and even studying firsthand the original teachings from early Christianity, wherein that doctrine can be found. Christians, as others, are free to ponder and to contemplate what they like - and to accept one teaching, and reject another. Clearly, the central ideas are focused on and around the life and teachings of Christ Jesus ... yet this is not a static doctrine, and those who believe it simply took 2000 years to `perfect the dogmas' have actually arrived at an understanding that is 180 degrees from factual.

What has happened is that in 2000 years, the crystallization that has occurred has all but obscured the true teachings of Christ, in some cases, so that what we have left is Churchianity. Any time that an Individual - however Great and accomplishedi - is WORSHIPPED, instead of venerated, and his Teachings EMULATED and applied ... the original impulse of Ideas is under danger of loss & destruction. The distortion can be cleaned up, as best as possible, but when the dead-letter matters more than the living spirit, there is often nothing that can be done ... and this is very sad for those who cling. But in the bigger picture, their suffering is not without reward ...

The argument that one cannot believe in Rebirth and be a Christian is simply a foolish insistence on dogma, and it is an example of circular logic. It begs the question entirely of what it MEANS to be a Christian in the first place (!) ... and while such an argument should focus on behavior perhaps 95%, and specific doctrine only 5%, it cannot be denied that the 5% is of tremendous importance - for this has a big impact on the other 95% ... sometimes. Most often, it is simply what others do which actually determines how we lead our Christian (or other kind of) lives.

And the proof is evident, the rejection of Rebirth is a self-fulfilling, vicious cycle kind of phenomenon. If Suzie doesn't believe it, and she's a Christian, and John doesn't believe it, and he's a Christian, then clearly I can't beleive it, or else I'm not a Christian! No longer are we actually asking, What does it mean to be a Christian, instead we are asking, What do most Christians believe.

Should we be interested in looking back at original, or early Church teachings, we will find the `religious police' descending on us with all the same vigor and tenacity as the original Spanish Inquisition, and while the thumb screws may not be apparent via an electronic medium such as the internet ... do not think that one cannot be persecuted and oppressed because of one's ideas nonetheless - and discouraged from asking such inconvenient questions, while a STRONG INFLUENCE is exerted over the little ones (subtle manipulation, exactly - though black magic nonetheless) ... where the desired EFFECT (again, black magic working with effects, not causes) is NOT TO QUESTION.

Thus we will find every trick in the book being used, every authority possible being referenced, not just to show that many in the early church did NOT believe in Rebirth ... but to show you why YOU MUST NOT DO SO, EITHER. And the penalty? The punishment? The repercussions for doing so?

Hell. Excommunication. Ostracism. Scorn. Ridicule. Ceasing to be regarded as a TRUE Christian ... and being forever CAST INTO DOUBT - by your PEERS it should be noted, as to whether you may have just taken a walk into the abyss ... and let's face it folks, when `things just seem to WORK for you, more or less,' the way things are at present ... WHY knock it, right?

Why tug on the proverbial piece of string ... why open Pandora's Box?

The argument, the reasons NOT to question, would almost be watertight and rock solid ... if not for -----

... and I must leave it to the Reader to make up his or her OWN mind, as to what to believe, what to decide, where (or whether) to inquire, and as to where to go from here.

If we hand a hungry man an apple, or an orange, he is of course, forever left free to question and to ponder - is this fruit poisoned, or tainted, and if I eat of it, will I become sick and die?

And by the time he's done his pondering, the question will probably cease to matter anyway!

We must ask ourself, which virtues are worth enthroning - Kindness, and Generosity ... or fear, and paranoia?

Or in fact, are some of these not virtues at all, but simply the tired old face of suspicion, mistrust and (mis)judgment ...

[cyberpi]

Andrew,
Karma to me lacks the 'will' or the 'personality' that I've seen God truly has. What groups do you propose are actively building upon good Karma? I am hopeful you believe in more than one.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

If we hand a hungry man an apple, or an orange, he is of course, forever left free to question and to ponder - is this fruit poisoned, or tainted, and if I eat of it, will I become sick and die?

And by the time he's done his pondering, the question will probably cease to matter anyway!

We must ask ourself, which virtues are worth enthroning - Kindness, and Generosity ... or fear, and paranoia?

Or in fact, are some of these not virtues at all, but simply the tired old face of suspicion, mistrust and (mis)judgment ...

It is interesting to hear an alleged theosophist denounce the pondering or questioning of religion. <cough>ypocrit. Scuze me... I'm trying to be serious in a jestful manner?!

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

It is interesting to hear an alleged theosophist denounce the pondering or questioning of religion. <cough>ypocrit. Scuze me... I'm trying to be serious in a jestful manner?!

No no, I don't say we should not question, but we cannot forever be fence-sitters. We are either for or against Christ (and all that He stands for), and the lukewarm will find that their inaction has gotten them nowhere!

Karma to me lacks the 'will' or the 'personality' that I've seen God truly has. What groups do you propose are actively building upon good Karma? I am hopeful you believe in more than one.

God, in Theosophical Teachings, and as understood by the Ageless Wisdom, is certainly not personal ... yet Deity is the very Fountainhead of Will for our Planet, and for our System. Karma in the context of the human experience, is utterly impersonal, as a LAW, yet it does have its Agents, Who represent it - from extra-Solar levels on down to the human, and sub-human.

In A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, the Hermetic Axiom can be seen in reference to this question of Karma, and the activity & function of the Lipika Lords, as in all else:

Another series of files in the records give—under a different formula—information as to what is esoterically called "the heat content" of any unit, "the radiating light" of any form, and the "magnetic force" of every life. It is through this knowledge that the Lipikas control the bringing in, and the passing out, of every Life, divine, superhuman, solar and human, and it is through a consideration of that formula which is the basic formula for a solar system that the physical plane appearance of a solar Logos is controlled, and the length of a cosmic pralaya settled. We must not forget that the Lipika Lords of the solar system have Their cosmic prototypes, and that These have Their feeble and groping human reflections in the great astronomical scientists who endeavour to ascertain facts anent the heavenly bodies, being subconsciously aware of the existence of these cosmic formulas conveying information as to the specific gravity, constitution, radiation, magnetic pull, heat and light of any sun, solar system, or constellation. Many of them in future and remote ages will pass to a full comprehension, and will have the formulas committed to their care, thus joining the ranks of the Lipikas. It is a peculiar line, requiring cycles of careful training in divine mathematics.

The Lipika Lords, controlling the periodical manifestation of life are, roughly speaking, divided into the following groups, which it might be of interest to note:

1. Three extra-systemic or cosmic Lords of Karma, Who work from a centre in Sirius through the medium of three representatives. These form a group around the solar Logos, and hold to Him a position analogous to the three Buddhas of Activity Who stand around Sanat Kumara.

2. Three Lipika Lords Who are the karmic agents working through the three aspects.

3. Nine Lipikas Who are the sumtotal of the agents for the Law working through what the Qabbalah calls the nine Sephiroth.

4. Seven presiding agents of karma for each one of the seven schemes.

These four groups correspond in manifestation to the Unmanifested, manifesting through the triple Aspects, and under Them work an infinity of lesser agents. These lesser agents might again be somewhat differentiated, each of the following groups being found in every scheme and on every ray-emanation.

1. The Lipika Lords of a scheme Who, through the manipulation of forces, make it possible for a planetary Logos to incarnate under the Law, and work out His cyclic problem.

2. Those who (under the first group) control the destiny of a chain.

3. Those who are the energy-directors of a globe.

4. Agents of every kind Who are concerned with the karmic adjustments, incident upon the periodical manifestation of such forms as:
a. A round, seven in all.
b. A kingdom in nature, seven in all.
c. The human kingdom.
d. A rootrace, subrace and branch race.
e. A nation, a family, a group, and their correspondences in all the kingdoms.
f. A plane.
g. The reptile and insect world.
h. The bird evolution.
i. The devas.
j. Human units, egoic groups, monadic lives, and myriads of other forms, objective and subjective, planetary and interplanetary, in connection with the Sun, and in connection with the planetoids.

All work with energy emanations, and with force units under cyclic law, and all have the same objective,—the producing of perfected activity, intensification of heat, and of radiant magnetic light as an expression of the will or purpose of each embodied life.

Much of this is way over my head, but folks such as Nick will understand the cycles and concepts to which the Tibetan Master is referring ...

As for the various Groups which are already active in the world today, and many still coming into activity under the new Aquarian impulse (7th Ray energies) ... those groups that are building Good karma - or seeking to establish the New Civlization whereby the Hierarchy can again become Externalized upon our planet, and the Divine Plan restored ...there are hundreds, perhaps thousands.

Only some of these are truly esoteric groups, yet even those have their innermost Divine Centers, in the Seven Ashrams, and the One Ashram of the Christ (Hierarchy). I know of perhaps a dozen, maybe two dozen, yet these are the more esoterically-focused groups. Those which serve as the exoteric arm, or outermost expression of the Love, Light and Purpose of Deity at this time, are too numerous to count. (vide I Corinthians 12:12)

Many of the environmental groups fall under this category, and perhaps ALL of the groups seeking to offer Humanitarian aid, such as the Red Cross. UN Groups like UNESCO, as well as the Peace Corps, and similar groups, are also good examples of the efforts of the Great Ones and Their disciples to get the Plan back on track.

There are many service projects that are either independently organized, or sponsored by religious and humanitarian organizations, and these, too, give expression to the SOUL aspect of Humanity, overshadowing the aspiring personality nature.

What we're really seeing is an entirely new ORGANISM manifesting upon the planet, and this is something it takes awhile to get used to, even just as an idea. It is the Soul aspect of Consciousness, which does not manifest in Aquarius as the individualized personality identity (ultimately a limiting understanding of `self,' we will discover).

Anyway, those are just a few examples, and Theosophy, as well as groups formed around the teachings of Alice Bailey (the Tibetan Master), or based on the teachings of Helena Roerich, Lucille Cedercrans, etc. ... are indeed, just a handful of the esoteric groups of which I'm aware. I'm sure there are others!

And there are far, far more exoteric manifestations of this inner, Soul impulse (the activity and Externalization of the Christ & Great Ones) than I could begin to name ...

[Manji2012]

Originally Posted by Neemai

It seems as a Christian who strictly follows scripture and canonized understanding you would have a difficulty seeing where it could possibly fit in? But as a more unorthodox Christian who doesn't neccessarily take the previous church authorities as an authority you could accept it within your own personal philosophy?

Have there really been no persons of "good standing" in Christianity who may have believed in Reincarnation in the distant past?

It seems to me that Jesus could have categorically denied or accepted the theory in this instance below, but did neither (although understandably it is also a special case). So at least his disciples must have been curious about the idea?

John 9,2

1 As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.
4 We have to do the works of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Best wishes,

... Neemai

I have not read this whole thread but I just wanted to add the idea that maybe Jesus was answering the question more directly. You see, in Buddhism, the idea that the reason for being born in improvished place or, being born with some kind of misfortune is a result of past karma in a past life is not always accepted as an explanation.

I mean, sure, there is some truth to that, but not in every single case. The more important thing is once again, not discerning if the reason for the misfortune was of past misconduct, but rather, what is in appropriate response to the current situation? The karma in Buddhism at times is more emphasized on the karma within a person that plays a role with how a person my initially respond to a situation.

[Manji2012]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I should probably refrain from being outspoken, but ...

As Neemai points out, everyone in the West seems intent on introducing a doctrine which the East regards as unfortunate in the first place!

The West's idea of reincarnation has turned a negative into a positive. Can someone explain where and how that came about?

In my view, it's founded on the security idea that I don't have to make any effort really, cos I get another go, and another, and another ... using Buddhism to cop out of the tough bits of Christianity, Christianity to cop out of the tough bits of Buddhism ...

I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.


Thomas

I have not read this whole thread but,

Is not so that, in some aspect of Judaism there does exist this idea of transmigration of souls. Gilgul and ibur. So, at the least, the idea has existed back then in that area. Somebody back then accepted this idea of cosmology. Weather if Christians did or not well, very tough argument. Show me the money.

I would like to think so or wish that is the case but, I am biased since this doctrine of rebirth agrees more with my reasoning of the nature of all things.

But, spirituality should not be political. I mean, there is no advantage thinking one life or many, all that matters is what works for you.

The kind of thinking you expressed is something I have heard before from other Christians. I think considering you only live on time and Jesus takes care of you naturally takes away any effort. All ya have to do is believe.

You can live over and over again but you will continue to be subject to rebirth. Weather that is a problem is up to you. For some it is, some want salvation and seek it.

As for to cop out on each other;

What that sounds like to me is the jumping back and forth from belief to path.

Belief:

In belief I find security. I can relax and let things go. However, as we human beings continue to encounter the harsh sides of life, the hardships, the tribulations, the emptiness, the sadness, the depression, the unfulfillment, the loss of security, the unsatisfactoriness in life, we become motivated to seek wisdom and practice that wisdom so that we can better understand the nature of all things, find peace and liberation, and die from an old way of being and resurrect into a new way of being.

Wisdom:

As we practice wisdom it is useful and functional. Liberating. It works. We find the relief and medicine we were searching for. We are enriched and empowered by it. Our laments and sorrows cease from our spiritual maturity and growth. However, we realize the road is long and hard, we will not make salvation in on life time. We find the spiritual path increasingly creepy because it asks us to let go of things we do not want to lose as a result, we get afraid on run back to our beliefs for security.

conclusion:

Beliefs our good for security and consolation but, they are insufficient in helping a person handle tough situations in life. The Wisdoms solves that problem but opens the reality of the difficulty of spiritual life. This means that a person should take in as much wisdom as life demands them to, and not rush to attain any more than that.

So, it really does take many lives to attain salvation.

The idea that Jesus is going to do it for you only makes the who tradition about saving your rear end from hell after death which is all fear in the heart. You make you whole life centered around proving to yourself that you are saved.

Get saved. I wanna be saved. I want to assure that I am saved. I want God to tell me I am saved.

I prefer Karma, from seeing the causes and effect in me, I can know where I am going scientifically.

[Manji2012]

Originally Posted by Dondi

If reincarnation is true, what is the purpose of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection if we are going to "reboot" anyway?

Perhaps Jesus' passing serves no purpose at all. The idea of Jesus dying for our sins is just paganism. Both the Jews and Muslims do not need Jesus for their grace from God at all and other people argue that the idea of that is simply paganism.

The Gospel of Thomas consists of the sayings of Jesus and nothing else. Perhaps Jesus Taught us wisdom.

Marcus Borg, a Christian, advocates the idea that Christianity is spiritual journey, a path, a and a way, not a belief. Marcus Borg even said that early Christianity was called, "Followers of the Way". This would further suggest that Jesus taught a spiritual path. So please practice.

So, when you read the Bible, look for the wisdom of Jesus and not mythology of Jesus which was created by people with political agendas at the council of Nicea.

I mean, in the current canonized Bible Jesus once said something like, "You Pharisees appear righteous upon men but, on the inside you are lawless, clean the cup on inside so the outside is clean."

This to me suggest that, maybe what Essau was saying that, being righteous actually does not come from actions of righteousness. It does not come from the doing the right thing and not performing the wrong thing. It is not from wearing the right cloths, believing the right thing, going to the local church or synagouge, and proclaiming this or that.

It actually comes from transforming from inside. When you have transformed your character within in yourself after having examined your Karma, the seeds planted in you, removing the unwanted seeds and watering and planting the good seeds, the fruit that one bears from such labor is great.

The faith of a mustard seed....

You reap what you sow....

You sow good you will reap good. You sow evil, you will reap evil.

So, plant the mustard seed in the good soil.

Those who exalt themselves shall be emptied, those empty themselves shall be exalted.

"The first shall be last and the last shall be first."

Being born again

Liberation through enlightenment.

Path Vs. Belief.

Something you can experience Vs. something you can not experience.

The truth.

Dhamma

The kingdom of heaven within you

Nibbanna within you

Buddha nature

being Christ like.

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew —

Might I suggest that your opinions of Christianity might be better received, by Christians at least, if you present them as views according to your own dogmas, rather than as inarguable facts? As I understand it, Theosophists are free to accept or reject their doctrines according to choice?

As Theosophists are free to believe in reincarnation, and as I understand your doctrine, they are also free to refute it. Christian doctrine, founded on our Scriptures, not yours, is more specific on that point:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:37

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Some of just don't accept the indoctrination - which INSISTS that we not question matters as difficult or complicated as Rebirth - and we prefer to study what hundreds, and thousands, of wise authors have had to say on this matter, throughout the ages: especially when so many of these have been Christian Mystics and Saints, revered and respected followers of Christ of every branch and type of the Christian tradition, even to the point of sticking to their guns once the Church has excommunicated them ...

As ever, if you can name a Christian mystic or saint who preaches reincarnation, then do so ... in the absence of such, I can only treat this as uninformed speculation on your part.

Likewise those excommunicated ...

And as you go on, you express a profound ignorance of the doctrine you so vilify:

Originally Posted by AndrewX

So I just wonder, do those who fight so hard to insist that Christianity has no room for the Law of Cause and Effect, of Sowing and of Reaping ... do they perhaps struggle so hard with this most basic and Universal Law & Divine instruction - because they themselves can't bear to ponder the idea that they, too, must return to incarnation, or is it just the same-old, same-old battle for ideas, in which they wish to see theirs dominate, irrespective of their veracity!

Another false argument:
"Be not deceived: God is not mocked. For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting."
Galatians 6:7-8

Our Scriptures use the analogy of reaping and sowing throughout, so you are so far off the mark there, it's laughable.

I would suggest, if pushed, that this text refers to reincarnation, 'reaping corruption' (ie a return to the same state) whereas Christianity refers to resurrection 'life everlasting' (an incorruptible state).

This is not doctrine but lo! As a Catholic, I am free to interpret it according to the Pauline kerygma if I so choose.

On this one text I could argue at length that Theosophy, tied to a doctrine of reincarnation, misses the point of Christianity altogether, but insists that the only rigfht interpretation is its own ... which is, in my view, a long way off the mark, a right and freedom it rebukes in anyone else.

As the rest of your post comprises your usual anti-Christian polemic, I shall ignore it.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Manji 2012

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Is not so that, in some aspect of Judaism there does exist this idea of transmigration of souls. Gilgul and ibur. So, at the least, the idea has existed back then in that area. Somebody back then accepted this idea of cosmology. Weather if Christians did or not well, very tough argument. Show me the money.

We can trace the idea of transmigration through later Jewish thinking, influenced by Greek philosophy.

We can then later still trace the rejection of various forms — transmigration among them, in Scripture (eg Hebrews) and Christian philosophers, (eg Origen).

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I would like to think so or wish that is the case but, I am biased since this doctrine of rebirth agrees more with my reasoning of the nature of all things.

That is your freedom to do. Christians follow a different line of reasoning.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

The kind of thinking you expressed is something I have heard before from other Christians. I think considering you only live on time and Jesus takes care of you naturally takes away any effort. All ya have to do is believe.

This is an often-voiced but erroneous assumption. It is not enough just 'to believe' — it's akin to assuming that all that's required of a Buddhist is to sit still and not think ...

It is required in Christianity (and Buddhism) that one lives and therefore acts according to what one believes.

What is not required is the huge amounts of ancilliary cosmological data beloved of the Hermeticist, for example. That is certainly a vocation, but not a requirement. Christianity is not a religion that depends on amassing a vast array of knowledge, nor is the mark of a Christian the amount of knowledge one can display.

Simplicity is the mark of the Christian.

It is a religion based on love, its origin, and its end.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Beliefs our good for security and consolation but, they are insufficient in helping a person handle tough situations in life. The Wisdoms solves that problem but opens the reality of the difficulty of spiritual life. This means that a person should take in as much wisdom as life demands them to, and not rush to attain any more than that.

And yet we often praise the 'simple wisdom' of the innocent, do we not?

I tend to view it that we act according to who we are, and who we are is shaped by what we believe (not necessarily what we know), and I would argue that it is this that enables one to handle the tough situations ... the lack of belief and principle debilitates, leaving one at the whim of currents, novelties, etc.

Second to that is willpower and courage. Many people are faced with difficult situations and know the right thing to do, but choose an easier path, and no amount of wisdom can prevent a failure of will.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

The idea that Jesus is going to do it for you only makes the who tradition about saving your rear end from hell after death which is all fear in the heart. You make you whole life centered around proving to yourself that you are saved.

But that is not what Christianity is.

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I prefer Karma, from seeing the causes and effect in me, I can know where I am going scientifically.

I might argue that in these matters 'science' does not hold all the answers — it is theory, and acceptable theory, but I do wonder how karma as 'cause and effect' stands in relation to Quantum Mechanics ... leaving aside the metacosmic.

Thomas