Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I'm picturing the Titanic sinking... have a spot on one of the life rafts... why go back?

I'm hoping that will never be my view of this glorious creation. Did always like the saying...the titanic was made by the finest engineers and shipbuilders in the world...the ark by amateurs. I don't ascribe this planet to be the titanic, a man made boondoggle, not by any means...nor am I ready to jump in the life boat...the analogy just doesn't sit with me.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I take it you agree with me then, eh?

I don't think so but I'm not sure I understand your beliefs. You seemed to present the belief that the purpose of life is to learn a lesson, and upon learning the lesson on this school of Earth that there is no reason to return to school. You seemed opposed to the concept of reincarnation as if it were a free pass for the jailed inmates or bad students on Earth to avoid learning the lessons. Yet if Jesus were an example then I figured it would cause a complete rethink of those beliefs. I imagine that a student who has taken every course in college, of every discipline, graduated with every degree, memorized every religious text, and is an expert on every religion... might fail to see any reason to ever go back to college.

Originally Posted by Thomas

There is the doctrine of reincarnation, and the doctrine of resurrection. The two are incompatible, we are founded on the latter.

Founded? If I have a father... do I not still have a Father? If I have a Father... do I not still have a father? With reincarnation a person has any father on the planet... multiple fathers from multiple lives even... and yet could still have the 'Father' in heaven the whole time. Whereas with the theories of 'we' that you present someone is going to have some explaining to do if two people were to have a child with an entirely different set of genes, language, and knowledge. Or, if only a single birth is permitted then those theorists have testified that they have a father for eternity rather than a Father... genes selected for eternity by their mother and father. Whereas Jesus had a Father and... ???

In short, if you contrast resurrection against reincarnation as incompatible then I am contrasting birth (incarnation) and resurrection as incompatible. Did Jesus arrive as an already learned adult with his own distinct genes... magically appear somewhere from a golden charriot? Or is the flesh and the soul separate and so Jesus came through a birth canal like everyone else, crying and pooping like all the rest?

[Bruce Michael]

>John 11:11-14:
"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend >sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. His disciples therefore >said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. But Jesus spoke of his death: and >they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep. Then therefore Jesus >said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

Sleep is the brother of death, as the saying goes.

>Does anyone suppose that the Infinite Mercy of God is such that he would >inflict this journey through the Valley of Shadows upon His creature a >second time ... did the father send the Prodigal Son away with the >rebuke, "go back, and learn your lesson, and keep going back, until you >get it right?" No. Did the shepherd find the lost sheep and say "stay lost, >until you find your way home"?


Well Eternity is a long time (if ever it could even be conceived of). So once is not much of an experience. Surely to say that life on Earth is just a Vale of Tears, is cynical. If it was folk would be far more lemming-like than they are.


>but rather the Christian thinks of that eternal rest in the bosom of the >Father who is All Love and All Mercy, and all in all.

Eternal rest is sloth.


>So the Christian, with faith in Christ, and faith in the Resurrection, and a >faith in the Wisdom of God that transcends all mortal thought, has no need >to look elsewhere for deliverance, nor need he stumble and clutch at the >chimeric promise of 'another chance' or find some means of explaining away the cruelties of this world to himself ...

But you didn't answer the question, Thomas. What about the non-Christians and those who couldn't communicate with Christianity for one reason or another?


>The Christian is free to accept reincarnation to the same degree that he is >free to doubt the Love of God — where he has faith in God who is Love, he >has no need of second chances.

That is a hard hearted dogmatic statement.

"Christ is not the teacher, as one is wont to say, Christ is not the
inaugurator, He is the content of Christianity."
- Schelling.

‘I have still much to say to you — but prepare yourselves in order that you may be able to bear it and understand it.’

-Christ
Dr. Steiner said it best when he said:

"By realizing that Christianity will bring forth from its depths an increasing flow of new and more living creations, we enhance its greatness. Those who are always saying: ‘That is not in the Bible, that is not true Christianity and those who maintain that it is, are heretics’, must be reminded that Christ also said: ‘I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now’. He did not say this in order to indicate that He wished to withhold anything from men, but that from epoch to epoch He would bring them new revelations. And this He will do through those who are willing to understand Him. Those who deny that there can be new revelations do not understand the Bible, neither do they understand Christianity. For they have no ears for what is implied in the admonition given by Christ: ‘I have still much to say to you — but prepare yourselves in order that you may be able to bear it and understand it.’

"The true Christians of the future will be those who are willing to hear what the Christians who were contemporaries of Christ were not yet able to bear. Those who allow Christ's Grace to flow into their hearts in ever increasing abundance — they will be the true Christians. The ‘hard of heart’ will resist this Grace, saying: Go back to the Bible, to the literal text of the Bible, for that alone is true. This is a disavowal of the words which in Christianity itself kindle light, words which we will take into our hearts: ‘I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.’ Good it will be for men when they can bear more and more in this sense: for thereby they prepare themselves for the ascent into the spiritual heights. And to these spiritual heights Christianity leads the way."
-Conceptions of Original Sin & Grace

Thanks Be to God, our Heavenly Father, for His Grace, that there is much to learn. May we be open to ever new insights and inspirations!

In the Lord,
Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

And another thing:
It is obvious that you cannot love or hate a non-existing thing, but in the story of Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13) the Lord loved the one and hated the other before their birth.

St. Paul gives us the teaching of reincarnation where he refers to the case of Jacob and Esau. And Paul spoke of the same event that the older prophet Malachi spoke of. Malachi 1:2-3

-Br.Bruce

[wil]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

This thread is even entitled, "are free to believe," and yet notice how VIGOROUSLY some parties must attack the very IDEA.

Yes the title "Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation" does also by proxy imply Christians are Free to REJECT Reincarnation...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm hoping that will never be my view of this glorious creation. Did always like the saying...the titanic was made by the finest engineers and shipbuilders in the world...the ark by amateurs. I don't ascribe this planet to be the titanic, a man made boondoggle, not by any means...nor am I ready to jump in the life boat...the analogy just doesn't sit with me.

Well, when the Ark was built it was the Earth that was tanked. I was not thinking of a 'fleshly' saving... more of a 'spiritual' one.

With resurrection, I find that everything including the Titanic, the Ark, everyone who has ever lived, the Earth at every moment... each lifetime at every single moment... absolutely anything and everything physically can be resurrected in some manner. It is within the fundamental design of the physics. Not so much that anyone or any history will necessarily be resurrected back into this world to live as it was before, but that outside of this world somewhere all history, every life, the Earth, every moment, may be seen as one giant book. Maybe like a hologram with perfect detail. The book is not what is alive though... it is the people who are writing the book who are alive. Some history is permanently lost from future pages... we all experience that... but the pages of history are never truly gone. Thus, the Titanic tanked on a page somewhere, but the page of the Titanic tanking... in exact perfect detail... still exists somewhere. Perhaps we'll watch it someday side by side with the people who lived it.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cyperpi

don't think so but I'm not sure I understand your beliefs. You seemed to present the belief that the purpose of life is to learn a lesson, and upon learning the lesson on this school of Earth that there is no reason to return to school. You seemed opposed to the concept of reincarnation as if it were a free pass for the jailed inmates or bad students on Earth to avoid learning the lessons. Yet if Jesus were an example then I figured it would cause a complete rethink of those beliefs. I imagine that a student who has taken every course in college, of every discipline, graduated with every degree, memorized every religious text, and is an expert on every religion... might fail to see any reason to ever go back to college.

Originally Posted by Bruce

Eternal rest is sloth.

This would hold true only if you think that eternity is static. That is there is no learning to be had. I disagree. I think there is so much more to learn, and that we don't necessarily need to return to earth to learn it, though I won't discount the possibility that God would have some return to mortal life on Earth. But being limited in mind, we are limited also in learning. It is often said that we only retain 25% of what we learn in school. But if we were in a perfected physical state, where our minds would not be prone to forget, how much more of the knowledge would we be able to retain? 100%? Then we have the capability to learn all the religious texts of the world, our minds being the perfect computer (though I do not think there would be a need for books in heaven, as I imagine that all knowledge would be directly available to the mind via telepathic means of some sort). All lessons will be retained. And there will be much to learn, not only principally, but practically as well. Talk about higher education!

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Dondi

But if we were in a perfected physical state, where our minds would not be prone to forget, how much more of the knowledge would we be able to retain? 100%? Then we have the capability to learn all the religious texts of the world, our minds being the perfect computer (though I do not think there would be a need for books in heaven, as I imagine that all knowledge would be directly available to the mind via telepathic means of some sort). All lessons will be retained. And there will be much to learn, not only principally, but practically as well. Talk about higher education!

This is a very bright vision, Dondi. And it is one that I believe already exists, on this earth, today. We do not need to be physically perfect in order to participate in it ... though increased participation, learning and practice does lead, inevitably, to precisely that.

My only beef is with those who say, "I'm not coming back, because I don't want to." Quite frankly, this is what the argument against Reincarnation really boils down to. We can show that it was taught and believed in early Christian, and pre-Christian times, by every culture and world religion. Then, as now, there were skeptics, and because it is difficult to provide direct, physical PROOF, there will continue to be skeptics. But as I've said, wishful thinking ... won't change the facts (or at least, not fundamentally so). POSITIVE Thinking, on the other hand, is exactly what World Teachers such as Christ Jesus and the Buddha taught us to do. And THAT - does change things.

Originally Posted by wil

Yes the title "Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation" does also by proxy imply Christians are Free to REJECT Reincarnation...

Quite right, good observation ... thanks for helping keep the balance. After my last couple of posts, I immediately felt like saying something to the effect of - It really isn't so important WHAT we believe, but rather, what matters is what we DO with what we believe. And I stand by that, in principle, though there is still such a thing, as being right, and being wrong, about something like Rebirth.

I am reminded of a portion from Fragment II of one the most Sacred Texts any esotericist could ever come to study - The Voice of the Silence:

Saith the pupil:

O Teacher, what shall I do to reach to Wisdom?

O Wise one, what, to gain perfection?

Search for the Paths. But, O Lanoo, be of clean heart before thou startest on thy journey. Before thou takest thy first step learn to discern the real from the false, the ever-fleeting from the everlasting.

Learn above all to separate Head-learning from Soul-Wisdom, the "Eye" from the "Heart" doctrine.

Yea, ignorance is like unto a closed and airless vessel; the soul a bird shut up within. It warbles not, nor can it stir a feather; but the songster mute and torpid sits, and of exhaustion dies.

But even ignorance is better than Head-learning with no Soul-wisdom to illuminate and guide it.

False learning is rejected by the Wise, and scattered to the Winds by the good Law. Its wheel revolves for all, the humble and the proud. The "Doctrine of the Eye" is for the crowd, the "Doctrine of the Heart," for the elect. The first repeat in pride: "Behold, I know," the last, they who in humbleness have garnered, low confess, "thus have I heard".

And this is exactly how I therefore understand, and how I interpret, Christ's statement to the disciples in Luke 8, v.10, wherein he explains the parable of the Sower, saying:

Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew, you said,

"It really isn't so important WHAT we believe, but rather, what matters is what we DO with what we believe."

--> I agree. It has been said that, when we apply to enter Nirvana, we are not asked what we believe (we are not asked if we believe in Jesus, etc.) We are only required to prove we have evolved high enough to enter Nirvana.

By the way, I am presently reading The Voice of the Silence, one aphorism a day. Here is a good one I read recently:

53. Heaven's dew-drop glittering in the morn's first sunbeam within the bosom of the lotus, when dropped on earth becomes a piece of clay; behold, the pearl is now a speck of mire.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

This would hold true only if you think that eternity is static. That is there is no learning to be had. I disagree. I think there is so much more to learn, and that we don't necessarily need to return to earth to learn it, though I won't discount the possibility that God would have some return to mortal life on Earth. But being limited in mind, we are limited also in learning. It is often said that we only retain 25% of what we learn in school. But if we were in a perfected physical state, where our minds would not be prone to forget, how much more of the knowledge would we be able to retain? 100%? Then we have the capability to learn all the religious texts of the world, our minds being the perfect computer (though I do not think there would be a need for books in heaven, as I imagine that all knowledge would be directly available to the mind via telepathic means of some sort). All lessons will be retained. And there will be much to learn, not only principally, but practically as well. Talk about higher education!

If the premise is that the purpose of life is to learn, and the premise that God sends people to Earth to work and learn the hard way... then I find that the student who arrives before God and is learned with 100% retainment in all religion, all subjects, all colleges, all degrees, at any time before death... I imagine God will look at him with disgust and strip him of every possession, and he will be thrown back as a baby, stripped of all knowledge for his failure to identify... his purpose.

Knowledge is a tool, a possession, like a computer or a car. Some people call them toys. Is the purpose to receive... or to give? Those who have more... more is expected of them. If the purpose of life is to learn, then learn to teach. There will always be a job.

[Dondi]

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." - John 16:12-14


"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." - John 14:26

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" - John 15:26

The reason that the disciples couldn't bear anymore the things Jesus wanted to teach them is because they had yet to receive the Holy Spirit. It is this indwelling Spirit guides us to all truth. But since the disciples did not yet possess the Holy Spirit, they were limited to the understanding of a natural man (See I Corinthians 2:9-16). They could not understand any more untill the Holy Spirit enlighted their hearts and minds at Pentacost (Acts 2). They became spiritual men through the process of being born-again of the Spirit. In receiving the Holy Spirit, they began a deep relationship with God and through the experience and revelation of the Spirit of God, they learned all things.

Yes, there is much to learn. But I don't see any advantage of returning to earth to learn when we can continue in the Presence of God in the Kingdom of God.

Perhaps this learning might take place on Earth during the Millenial Kingdom where Christ reigns for 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6). Maybe we'll all be there and learn to Love God and Love each other. Those that are part of the First resurrection are those who will reign with Him. There, perhaps we will teach those who still don't know or misunderstand the grace of God from the surrounding nations. Then after 1000 years, those that still resist, well, that's their choice. Those that come to God will be part of the second resurrection. Whatever the case, I believe God will be fair.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If the premise is that the purpose of life is to learn, and the premise that God sends people to Earth to work and learn the hard way... then I find that the student who arrives before God and is learned with 100% retainment in all religion, all subjects, all colleges, all degrees, at any time before death... I imagine God will look at him with disgust and strip him of every possession, and he will be thrown back as a baby, stripped of all knowledge for his failure to identify... his purpose.

Knowledge is a tool, a possession, like a computer or a car. Some people call them toys. Is the purpose to receive... or to give? Those who have more... more is expected of them. If the purpose of life is to learn, then learn to teach. There will always be a job.

Perhaps the term "learn" is a bit simplistic, for it implies a certain amount of head knowledge. But the kind of spiritual learning involves the heart. Learning to love others, learning to love God. Yes, and teach others to do the same. It is learning to live life. God knows, I'm not ever going to learn everything in this present lifetime. You seem to think I mean that we can learn all here. But I'm arguing that we can learn in the Kingdom of God, wherever and however that might be. I'm not going to stop learning once I'm gone, but that learning continues on and on and on (how many fingers can I hold up to count to infinity). But if we are resurrected in bodies that will be able to hold knowledge at a greater capacity, wouldn't that be better than the grey matter we have now?

What do you consider the purpose of life, cyberpi?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Perhaps the term "learn" is a bit simplistic, for it implies a certain amount of head knowledge. But the kind of spiritual learning involves the heart. Learning to love others, learning to love God. Yes, and teach others to do the same. It is learning to live life. God knows, I'm not ever going to learn everything in this present lifetime. You seem to think I mean that we can learn all here. But I'm arguing that we can learn in the Kingdom of God, wherever and however that might be. I'm not going to stop learning once I'm gone, but that learning continues on and on and on (how many fingers can I hold up to count to infinity). But if we are resurrected in bodies that will be able to hold knowledge at a greater capacity, wouldn't that be better than the grey matter we have now?

What do you consider the purpose of life, cyberpi?

Whether or not you can learn ALL in the Kingdom of God is irrelevant to me as I consider ALL that I have learned here to have been from God, whether directly or indirectly. I still have to leave a lot of that behind (don't use it), to go and actually do something for other people. If you ask why a person would leave their little corner of heaven, their safe house, their comfort zone, their wealth of knowledge (ALL, right, in the Kingdom of God), and walk the Earth... then I'd ask you why Jesus did it.

Purpose? Children teach me my purpose.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Whether or not you can learn ALL in the Kingdom of God is irrelevant to me as I consider ALL that I have learned here to have been from God, whether directly or indirectly. I still have to leave a lot of that behind (don't use it), to go and actually do something for other people. If you ask why a person would leave their little corner of heaven, their safe house, their comfort zone, their wealth of knowledge (ALL, right, in the Kingdom of God), and walk the Earth... then I'd ask you why Jesus did it.

Purpose? Children teach me my purpose.

Agreed. Everything we learn is from God. How do you know that we would not be interacting with people in heaven? Maybe teaching others in heaven?

"I still have to leave a lot of that behind (don't use it), to go and actually do something for other people."

That's part of the learning, too.

"If you ask why a person would leave their little corner of heaven, their safe house, their comfort zone, their wealth of knowledge (ALL, right, in the Kingdom of God), and walk the Earth... then I'd ask you why Jesus did it."

Good question. Because He loves us? And He wants us there in that little corner?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Good question. Because He loves us? And He wants us there in that little corner?

A valid answer...one that would apply only to he?