Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

A valid answer...one that would apply only to he?

What do you mean?

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.
Thomas

Here's some examples for you:

The Kabala along with other Jewish works, demonstrates that the Hebrews certainly entertained the idea of reincarnation.

"Rabbi Isaac Luria founded a school of the Kabala around 1560, and the great exponent of his teachings, Rabbi Chajim Vital, wrote a famed work called Otz Chiim, or the Tree of Life, from which Baron Knorr von Rosenroth, a Christian Kabalist, took the Book on the Ra****h ha Gilgalim, revolutions of souls, or scheme of reincarnations."

So Christian Kabalists certainly supported the Jewish doctrine.

Christian Knorr von Rosenroth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Talmudic Miscellany by Paul Isaac Hershon contains the the following quotations from the Kabala:

If a man be niggardly either in a financial or a spiritual regard, giving nothing of his money to the poor, or not imparting of his knowledge to the ignorant, he shall be punished by transmigration into a woman.

Know thou that Sarah, Hannah, the Shunamite (2 Kings, iv. 8), and the widow of Zarepta, were each in turn possessed by the soul of Eve.

The soul of Rahab transmigrated into Heber the Kenite, and afterwards into Hannah; and this is the mystery of her words: "I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit" (I Sam. i. 15)- for there still lingered in her soul a sorrowful sense of inherited defilement. . . . Sometimes the souls of pious Jews pass by metempsychosis into Gentiles, in order that they may plead on behalf of Israel and treat them kindly.
Yalkut Reubeni, Nos. 1, 8, 61, 63

-Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

[quote=Dondi;122898Yes, there is much to learn. But I don't see any advantage of returning to earth to learn when we can continue in the Presence of God in the Kingdom of God.

[/quote]

As I said, it is an interesting question as to why development takes place away from the heavenly realms.

"(God) who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Cor. 2 3:6 KJV

There is much in the Holy Scriptures, but they do not by any means contain all knowledge.

Paul, when speaking about those who interpreted literally, stated:

"But their minds (of the children of Israel) were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [veil] is done away in Christ." Ibid 3:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14

rephrased:

But the natural man [who interprets literally] receiveth not [cannot understand] the things of the Spirit of God: [the things written by the Spirit of God in the scriptures] for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [because they are only understood spiritually.] 1 Co 2:14

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Colossians 2:2-3

"All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" are hid in Father God and Christ.

Shalom,
Br.Bruce

[Dondi]

I have some quotes concerning reincarnation that I found on Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife website:

One of the purposes of the life review is to make an informed choice between remaining in spirit and returning to flesh. Should we choose to merge completely with the light of God, we will never again be able to choose, on our own decision, to return to physical life. The decision to merge in the light is the best decision. (Thomas Sawyer)

If we do not wish to reincarnate to the physical state to learn our lessons, there are schools in the spirit were we can learn them. However, learning our lessons in the physical state is the fastest way to learn them. (David Oakford)

What do you make of this? Isn't this what I've been trying to tell you?

[AndrewX]

Yes, Dondi, this is the teaching of `Pure Land' Buddhism. And in Hinduism this in-between state, this merging is referred to as Devachan. Theosophy, which of course, borrowed the teaching from Hinduism, presented it to the West ~125 years ago ... when it was all but unknown to 99.9% of us.

And Buddhism, too, teaches that such a state exists, whether it is called Nirvana, or somehow folded into the teaching of the Trikaya - specifically, the Sambhogakaya aspect (or `bliss sheath'). Either way, the person would be experiencing the state of bliss temporarily ... for not until the stage of Arhat can any of us enter into Nirvana for any lengthy stay.

And even the Arhat, must return to continue his spiritual development, though he may choose to do this at a much later point. Esotericially, your Soul and mine, are technically ARHATS (most likely), whom and which achieved thier goal on the earlier `Moon Chain' - which was the previous Cycle of Earth's evolution (many billions of years ago). They return, and make their Sacrifice, that we too, might come to attain to their same status ... in this, or in some future cycle.

Other words for the Arhat include: Arhan, Arahat, Arahant, Lohan, Rahat, Paramahamsa (as in `Paramahamsa Yogananda,' for example), etc.

But you and I are, neither one of us, arhats ... thus we shall have several more incarnations until we even have this option!

Now, as to the above quotes, from Thomas Sawyer and David Oakford, I would only have to assume that either they are actually referring to the Arhat stage of spiritual evolution, whether they know it or not ... or else they are being wishful, but are nonetheless mistaken. That is, of course, only mho, and even an account I read just yesterday by someone I hold in very high esteem ... should be seen in this same light. It describes precisely what you've mentioned, Dondi - a near-death experience, in which the person involved was supposedly given an opportunity to merge into the Universal Light and Love, and abide with God. I don't doubt that he was given this opportunity; but remember, all such experiences occur in a (relatively) timeless state. And this is exactly what the upper portions of the Mental world, or Devachan, are like (existing in 5 dimensions, as opposed to the 4D astral plane).

You can read Steven Greer's brief account here, as a PDF: http://www.disclosureproject.org/PDF...ters_1_&_2.pdf

Anyway, just because someone presents a New Age perspective, speaks of OOBEs and NDEs, and believes in rebirth (opportunities), does not mean they have the correct understanding. I think I quoted earlier, if not on this thread then on another, regarding the teachings of the early Theosophists on this matter. It is pointed out that all the wrong details were seized upon and emphasized, not out of any wrong intention or wish to mislead, but simply because much of the investigation was being conducted from an astral plane point of view. Good motives are one thing, but the astral plane is a world of distortions and illusion (or `glamour') ... and much misleading information has been given out. Thus, I think we have the explanation here, for the inaccurate (because over-enthusiastic) points you have quoted.

And of course, I could just be - flat wrong.

cheers,

~Andrew

[Bruce Michael]

Thomas asked:

>I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written >history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, >it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.


Josephus is well known to Christian apologists.
In his Antiquity of the Jews (Book i8, Chap. 1, No.2), Josephus states that there were three sects of philosophy amongst the Jews: the Essenes, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees. The doctrine of the Sadducees was that souls die with the bodies, but both the Essenes and the Pharisees, he affirms, believed in rebirth. As to the Essenes, he states elsewhere:

They smiled in their very pains and laughed to scorn those who inflicted torments upon them, and resigned up their souls with great alacrity, as expecting to receive them again.
For their doctrine is this, that bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever: and that they come out of the most subtile air, and are united to their bodies as to prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; but that when they are set free from the bonds of flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward. . . .
These are the divine doctrines of the Essenes about the soul....
Jewish War, Book 2, Chap. 8, Nos. 10- 11

[The Pharisees] believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them [and that the virtuous] shall have power to revive and live again: on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people.
Antiquity of the Jews, Book i8, Chap. 1, No.3

Philo Judeus (20 B.C.-A.D. 54): ALEXANDRlAN PHILOSOPHER AND JEW:

The air is full of souls; those who are nearest to earth descending to be tied to mortal bodies return to other bodies, desiring to live in them.
De Somniis

The company of disembodied souls is distributed in various orders. The law of some of them is to enter mortal bodies and after certain prescribed periods be again set free. But those possessed of a diviner structure are absolved from all local bonds of earth. Some of these souls choose confinement in mortal bodies because they are earthly and corporeally inclined...
.........
All such as are wise, like Moses, are living abroad from home. For the souls of such formerly chose this expatriation from heaven, and through curiosity and the desire of acquiring knowledge they came to dwell abroad in earthly nature, and while they dwell in the body they look down on things visible and mortal around them, and urge their way thitherward again whence they came originally: and call that heavenly region ... their citizenship, fatherland, but this earthly region in which they live, foreign.

Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37-100)-HISTORIAN:

[From an address of Josephus to some Jewish soldiers who desired to kill themselves rather than be captured by the Romans:]

The bodies of all men are, indeed mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies. . . . Do ye not remember that all pure Spirits when they depart out of this life obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolutions of ages, they are again sent into pure bodies; while the souls of those who have committed self-destruction are doomed to a region in the darkness of Hades?

Jewish War, Book 3, Chap. 8, No. 5


-More evidence that the Jews definitely believed in reincarnation.

-Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Dondi

One of the purposes of the life review is to make an informed choice between remaining in spirit and returning to flesh. Should we choose to merge completely with the light of God, we will never again be able to choose, on our own decision, to return to physical life. The decision to merge in the light is the best decision. (Thomas Sawyer)

If we do not wish to reincarnate to the physical state to learn our lessons, there are schools in the spirit were we can learn them. However, learning our lessons in the physical state is the fastest way to learn them. (David Oakford)

What do you make of this? Isn't this what I've been trying to tell you?

I believe in order to develop we need to come home to Mother Earth. The only constant is change, and even Mother Earth will change and "reincarnate".

We have been in a period where there has been much spiritual blindness, but this way of things is set to change. We have all the events of the Second Coming to look forward to, for one thing.

The term Nirvana means "blown out" like a candle, and refers to our merging with Father God - and that state is one of unimaginable Bliss.

At the midnight hour between death and rebirth, Tomberg informs us that we need to be sheilded from this experience, because very few would want to leave it.

We go to Heaven in order to be refreshed- that's all.

Do you believe in the pre-existence of the soul before birth?
Jeremiah was certainly in existence before he arrived in his mother's womb:

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We may not remember a former life. What does Ecclesiastes say about this-

Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

-Br.Bruce
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

[paul]

Bruce. your view is your interperatation, as your talk about the freedom of Christians to accept your interperatation.

As human beings they're free to accept anything.
But as to Christianity, I have to ask what makes your views Christian.
And Christianity that doesn't accept reincarnation, are you saying they lack a true understanding, where as you have the truth?

I don't really understand reincarnation.

I've lost a loved one.
What of the beleif that we will meet again?

How does this fit into reincarnation.

What of my own personal experience.
If I am a reincarnated being, what of my loved ones from past lives? I don't remember them, I don't know them, I don't remember my own person.

What happens to people and loved ones, the memories, the love even? I can't remember none of it myself.
If I am a reincarnated being, why am my memories only of this life?

[Dondi]

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Bruce,

Since this is the omniscient Lord God speaking in this passage, how do you know He isn't speaking of His foreknowledge of Jeremiah, seeing how He purposed beforehand to raise Jeremiah as a prophet.

Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

This verse is in context with the idea that there is nothing new under the sun as far as the experiences of man. All is vanity:

Ecclesiates 1:9-10 - The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Try putting verses into context sometimes. It helps to explain the passage.

[Bruce Michael]

>Since this is the omniscient Lord God speaking in this passage, how do you >know He isn't speaking of His foreknowledge of Jeremiah, seeing how He >purposed beforehand to raise Jeremiah as a prophet.

Because, Dondi, i) the Jews believed in reincarnation and ii) compare Malachi and Paul:

(Romans 9:10-14)And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac-- 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

We cannot love or hate a non-existing thing.

>This verse is in context with the idea that there is nothing new under the >sun as far as the experiences of man.

Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

The above does not indicate "experiences". In fact it suggests physical objects that we can "see".

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my
new name."
Revelation 3:12

Evidently he had gone out into incarnation before or the words "no more" could have no place or meaning.

Sure there are different ways of interpreting a verse. Origen states that there are three main ways.

Quite frankly, I don't believe an honest viewing of Biblical verses can prove or disprove reincarnation. It is up to the individual.

To me, there's no more sensible solution to the riddle of life. What fairer a system could there be?

How do you account for the different fates that human beings start out with in life? What of early deaths, severe mental retardation, poverty, wealth, "bad childhoods" etc? What of those who spend an entire lifetime totally shielded from any knowledge of Christianity?- are they bound for eternal damnation?

No, reincarnation is the fairest system which God in His Wisdom has put in place that we may be healed and purified- as St. Gregory put it.

"It is absolutely necessary that the soul should be healed and purified, and if this does not take place during its life on earth it must be accomplished in future lives."

-St. Gregory- Bishop of Nyssa 257-332.

There it is, thank you St. Gregory- who must be the patron saint of reincarnation. The early Christians believed in reincarnation - as indeed the Jews did before them - until a Papal worm or something came along and told them not to.

Happy Trails,
-Br.Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Greetings Paul,

>Bruce. your view is your interperatation, as your talk about the freedom of >Christians to accept your interperatation.

Freedom means choice. Christians remain Christians whether they accept reincarnation or not.

>But as to Christianity, I have to ask what makes your views Christian.

Because they are true. And theologically speaking I fail to see how believing in reincarnation or not affects our Christianity.


>And Christianity that doesn't accept reincarnation, are you saying they >lack a true understanding, where as you have the truth?

Christians were once compelled to believe the Earth was the centre of the Universe.

>I've lost a loved one.
>What of the beleif that we will meet again?

>How does this fit into reincarnation.

I believe you will meet loved ones in the after life, in your sojourn in Heaven. There are are lot of people you will love as time goes on- and what's wrong with that? And why wouldn't that be part of God's Grand Design.


>What happens to people and loved ones, the memories, the love even? I >can't remember none of it myself.
>If I am a reincarnated being, why am my memories only of this life?

Do you remember your dreams? And how much detail? What about dreams you had five years ago? And what of your childhood? How much of that do you remember?
In the space of a thousand years you might have forgotten a few things.

There are four ways which one might argue the case for reincarnation:


1. Looking at reincarnation in the Holy Scriptures- the hints in the Bible.

2. And looking at the belief as it occurs in Judaism. (I have posted before on this.) I think it took until the 6th century before a belief in reincarnation was banned by the Church.

3. (And this is more convincing for me.) The philosophical/theological argument. If God is a God of justice why is it that we are born into such varying circumstances? Why do some only have short lives? Are they then judged for eternal life after only having scant experience?

4. And lastly, direct inarguable experience. Without attempting to present any of the above arguments, Tomberg plainly states that it was part of his direct knowledge, and that is that. If folk don't believe in reincarnation now, they will, when through initiation they come to it directly. Personally I have had dreams and strong intuitions about my own "ongoingness".

And what if they are born mentally handicapped or with some other malady that prevents them from making adequate spiritual decisions?

Physical circumstances: If becoming a Christian is so important why is it next to impossible for plenty to come to this decision- because of remoteness (the middle of a New Guinea jungle for example) or because they live in an atheistic/communist or Muslim society.

All these questions must be answered by proponents of the "one life" doctrine.

I can still remember the marvelous feeling of relief I felt when coming to the idea of reincarnation. Everything sorts itself out in the end.

There are reasons for our circumstances and those of others. Life goes on and we develop further- we build on our strengths and make good our deficiencies. We experience all positions on the Wheel of Fortune.

Talking on the subject recently a friend said to me "Oh but when are we going to be with God." Personally I believe that on average we spend about one thousand years in the heavenly worlds- enough time for R & R.
Here the writer of Psalms (Prayer of Moses) mentions this thousand years:

Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of
men. For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it
is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psalms 90:3-4

As for being at one with our Father God, Tomberg states that at the midnight hour between birth and death we have to be sheltered from the sight of Nirvana (totally at-one-ness) because the blissfulness is such that you would never want to leave!

BTW the teaching of reincarnation and karma does not in any way preclude the doctrine of Original Sin and Grace. These are greater issues which affect humanity as a whole. There is a lecture on Original Sin by Dr. Steiner available- I have posted the link.

Cheerio,
Br.Bruce

[paul]

But what difference and relevance does it have to have one life and then another, and remember nothing of the life before?

If you can't remember your love and your mistakes, then what is the point of reincarnation?

[paul]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

"It is absolutely necessary that the soul should be healed and purified, and if this does not take place during its life on earth it must be accomplished in future lives."

-St. Gregory- Bishop of Nyssa 257-332.

Would you be so kind to post a link to this in it's original context?

Where did you get it from, have you a book if you didn't find it online?

I know his works are online, so even if you have a book and can tell me the chapter I may beable to find it in it's context and save you posting the whole context.

Thanks.

Paul

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by paul

But what difference and relevance does it have to have one life and then another, and remember nothing of the life before?

If you can't remember your love and your mistakes, then what is the point of reincarnation?

We do remember them, paul, just at a subconscious level. Our previous mistakes will reappear, in a new form - appropriate to the day and the current circumstances - and we are given a chance to "try again," as it were.

Except what is different is that we've learned, and gained something, during the time we spent in between incarnations. We LEARN during the period after death, and we gradually become "purged," or purified, so that we may enter in - again & again, closer & closer - to God's Most Holy Presence.

Through this method, we are made ready to live in God's Light and Love, even as we move through the world of men, as did Christ Jesus. And although the circumstances of the world have changed, especially over hundreds of years, the verities of the Kingdom of God have NOT changed. That is how it is possible, and right & just, that we may learn lessons in a life long ago past, which can and must be applied IN A LIFE CURRENT ... so that certain virtues can become a permanent part of our true Self, the Spiritual part of our being.

For we are not of this world, we are simply in it. And our Consciousness is not the product OF physical life, or an outgrowth of it ... but instead it is the nature of our true Self, the SOUL, which learns by its experience here - yet which also calls another `place,' or another state, `HOME.'

And we remember our Loves, both as people, and as places, experiences, or things. We meet people throughout our lives, whom we recognize as former Friends ... though they are in a new body, a new appearance, and truly - we have NOT seen them before, as such. What we recognize, is the same FRIEND with whom we have more than likely incarnated dozens, scores, even hundreds of times, throughout the eons.

And precisely because of such relationships, do some disciples grow so near & dear to the heart of a more Advanced Soul ... that when that Soul approaches Self-Mastery, or adeptship, a group of his closest Brethren become gathered, in Co-Service to God & to Humanity. We have seen this story, enacted before us, again, and again, and again, depicting what is possible, and Planned, and destined, for all of us ... given Right Effort, and Discipline, and Brotherly Love.

These teachings can be distorted. They have been distorted, to suit the agendas, and the machinations, of a power-hungry, politically corrupt institution ... still hiding the truth from the hearts and minds of honest believers. But the days of such EVIL are numbered. Christ comes as the Revealer of TRUTH, and He will cleave the outworn, encrusted theological DOGMAS from the beautiful pearls of Wisdom that have long been imprisoned therein.

Like a Butterfly, emerging from its age-long chrysalis, the Doctrines which Christ taught WILL become freed, and given AGAIN, to all the Souls who earnestly, and humbly, seek Them.

This, in the esoteric teachings, is referred to as `The Restoration of the Mysteries,' which, clearly, the `Church' is no longer actually guarding. Christ's Reappearance is also accompanied by `The Externalization of the Hierarchy,' with at least a dozen or so spiritual Teachers accompanying the Christ, alongside the Nazarene Master, and several Who are already increasingly well known.

Literally millions of disicples are cooperating in service to this Plan, God's Plan ... and belief in Rebirth, though it is something that most esotericists do accept, is not a requirement - to Serve God & Humanity, and fulfil one's part, in the greater scheme of things.

In Love and Light,
A Brother of yours upon the Path,

~andrew

[Dondi]

Andrew,

I'm interested in how you know you've been reincarnated. What evidence do you see for yourself that you've existed previously? And as what?