Christians converting to Islam and Judaism

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Yeah, but Faithfulservant, I think wil is referring to the attitude of other Christians here, not anything God expects of us. Besides, I don't believe God says it in anything like such an authoritarian manner.

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

A command.. it sounds pretty cut and dry to me.

[taijasi]

The interesting thing about playing in a band, is that you form friendships, and lifelong partnerships ... and after enough practices and concerts, you really get your act down together. You find that in almost any circumstances, you're on the same page with the other band members ... and it is only natural that you experience something of what each member is going through. At the same time, the rest of the band is strongly influenced by what you're going through ... but all in all, things tend to round themselves out, and so long as the cohesive spirit of the band itself remains present, so also will the band - as an entity - live and thrive.

Now apply this same thinking to a larger musical entity, such as a symphony orchestra - and one that travels, so that its members are often together, much like a band. Don't forget that even within one orchestra there are sections. There are woodwinds, brass, strings, and percussion ... not to mention any number of sub-groupings of these. And yet, if we are considering the Moscow Symphony Orchestra as an example, most would agree that there is a unique style, a repertoire, and thus collectively, a character which that orchestra takes on. This character is not defined strictly by the woodwinds, or by the brass, or by any one section ... although in some orchestral groups I'm sure there is recognition of each of these. Overall, a famous orchestra stands out among its fans for many reasons, but it still holds for the discerning ear a certain character and quality.

Now take this idea further. In this very large world of ours, united in many ways but diverse in others, no one in his right mind would argue that many good and famous symphony orchestras exist ... each with its own repertoire, style and character, as mentioned above. Some may even seem to be in competition with each other, though usually in a friendly manner - by sheer virtue of the literal harmony and spirit of cooperation that is necessary to even form the orchestra in the first place, much less become "good." Overall, however, orchestral music - though diverse - is all related as belonging to a common genre ... and when one attends the symphony one does not usually expect to hear heavy metal, or jazz, or country music ... notwithstanding certain bold experiments of Kronos and the like.

The point is ... musicians come in all shapes & sizes, all colors & varieties, and practice their art through all types of media, including the beautiful power of the (unaccompanied) human voice itself. Yet all is music. An artist can rise to great heights as a soloist, and much great work has been accomplished this way. Often, musicians collaborate in a band, jazz group, or orchestra ... and this metaphor opens us to many, many possibilities. An orchestral group, for instance, usually has a Conductor. And naturally, if I have played with the same group for many years, sharing any number of moving & personal experiences ... I will come to respect, cherish, and even revere my particular Conductor - more than that of any other orchestra. Does that mean he's better?

Even conductors, on occasion, might seek to outdo each other, but I would submit that this is all in the healthy, happy spirit of a positive challenge. It is a test of one's creativity, of one's innovation. We see many of the same elements of this metaphor in the sporting arena ... but I think the spirit of cooperation is somewhat less prominent, and that of competition - healthy or otherwise - receives undue stress.

I find this metaphor ideal for talking about religions, denominations, religious leaders, harmony (or the desperate need thereof) between followers - both within a given denomination & amongst different religions, etc. In fact, I like to hope (and am certain, for & of myself) ... that in God's Orchestra, to be somewhat quaint - there is room for everybody. For if there is not, then surely, somewhere, somehow ... I have misunderstood.

May you follow faithfully in the footsteps of the drummer (bandleader, or Conductor) you have chosen ...

Peace,

andrew

[Quahom1]

If anyone chooses to leave one faith for another, it is not ours to try and stop them, for words will not change anything. Only our actions will catch the eyes of others, only our daily life's words will bend their ears (if they are to be bent at all).

In the case of Christianity, well there is the interesting story of the shepard and the wayward lamb. True, the lamb ran off, and true the shepard went looking for him, but the lamb came back to the call of the shepard. I suspect that if the lamb had not finally heeded the call of the shepard, the shepard would have reluctantly gone back to the flock...

Moral is, we can look for and call out to, but unless they come to the sound, we must go back empty handed.

Then the lamb, becomes the "prodigal son", and we wait and hope...

v/r

Q

[truthseeker]

And the words of salvation are a wonderful message and people are eager to hear if it can be offered as an option and not as the only method. Be it the only method for you, so be it. And you are a good person for it. Christians who live by truth are beautiful people. But there is another truth: There are still good people out there who the True Heavenly Father are looking after that will never know Jesus and don't necessarily need him.

Originally Posted by Bandit

i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?

Of course I am not Dondi,

But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on.

Jesus doesn't need a defense team. He didn't request one when he was up against Pilate so I'm left to believe that faith is within me and needs no validation from man. It is a brave man that gets his head chopped off because he doesn't want to lay his bible down. Those three kids that were thrown into the furnace for not worshipping the golden idol were definately warriors. But know that everyone has a battle and fortunately that is a battle we don't have to deal with. Now is the time to focus on unity and accepting people for who they are so that they can accept you and if you wish to bring people to Jesus, that is round about the only way to do it.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

And the words of salvation are a wonderful message and people are eager to hear if it can be offered as an option and not as the only method. Be it the only method for you, so be it. And you are a good person for it. Christians who live by truth are beautiful people. But there is another truth: There are still good people out there who the True Heavenly Father are looking after that will never know Jesus and don't necessarily need him.


Of course I am not Dondi,

But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on.

Jesus doesn't need a defense team. He didn't request one when he was up against Pilate so I'm left to believe that faith is within me and needs no validation from man. It is a brave man that gets his head chopped off because he doesn't want to lay his bible down. Those three kids that were thrown into the furnace for not worshipping the golden idol were definately warriors. But know that everyone has a battle and fortunately that is a battle we don't have to deal with. Now is the time to focus on unity and accepting people for who they are so that they can accept you and if you wish to bring people to Jesus, that is round about the only way to do it.

Great post, truthseeker. Thank you for the reminder about Peter--like someone opened a window for me.

peace,
lunamoth

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Wow, Bandit, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I don't ever recall seeing you so angry. This is a side of you I haven't seen before. Was there something said in this thread to get you so upset?

Originally Posted by Bandit

it gets old logging in & seeing a bunch of my beliefs being shot down like they mean nothing with no respect and that goes for JESUS CHRIST & the blood & the Love that was shed on Calvary as the only way we could have eternal life.

As far as I can see nearly everyone contributing to this thread, with the obvious exception of me, is a Christian. I don't see how anyone identifying as a Christian would disrespect Christ's sacrifice, and I didn't read anything like that here. Of course, it could be that you saw something that slipped by me.

Seeing as how I'm the obvious non-Christian here, I feel obliged to answer for my statements. I hope you don't think that I intended any disrespect for Christians, Christianity, or the belief in Jesus Christ as saviour. I hope you can understand that the fact that I do not share your belief that following Jesus Christ is the only way to get to heaven, does not mean that I hold you in contempt for so believing. I certainly do not intend any disrespect for Christ Himself, either. Perhaps you think that my lack of following Him is disrespect in and of itself.

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

I didn't ever actually reject the Bible, but the way I looked at it changed. I still believe that the Spirit and word of God can be found through reading it.
...
I believe that belief in Jesus Christ is one way to get closer to God, but I don't believe that Christians hold a monopoly on salvation or the Holy Spirit.

These statements, and others, of mine were never intended as bashing. I was only trying to answer the question posed in the original post. In fact, I was trying to emhasize how much respect I do have for the Bible, Christianity, and Christ.

I know I said that the hypocrisy I saw among Christians was one thing that drove me away from the Church, but I never thought for a moment that Christians have a monopoly on hypocrisy, either. I think it was lunamoth (the post is on the previous page and I can't see it) who said that it is often disillusionment, rather than hypocrisy, that drives people away from any belief system. That would have been a better word for me to use. It was a long and painful process in my case, involving many tearful nights of prayer. Moving away from Christianity was NOT a decision that came easily to me. I became increasingly disillusioned with, among other things, how little I saw the message of the Gospels actually being lived out. And since I relocated a lot (still do), I had the opportunity to go to a lot of different churches. I also became disillusioned with what I saw as a lack of respect on the part of the clergy for the intelligence and decision-making ability of the parishioners. It seemed to me that the message of the Gospels was in pretty short supply within Christianity, therefore I needed to start looking for it elsewhere.

Yes, the obvious answer would be "Start by looking within yourself," and I'd like to think I tried to do that. But after feeling such disillusionment, it was too painful for me to remain a part of a church.

I don't want to think I gave you, or anyone else, any cause for such anger and frustration when that was absolutely the last thing I ever intended.

[lunamoth]

{{{{{{Bandit}}}}}}

After reading many many of your posts I know that you do have respect for other religions.

peace,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Wow, Bandit, I don't know if you are still reading this thread, but I don't ever recall seeing you so angry. This is a side of you I haven't seen before. Was there something said in this thread to get you so upset?

actually no Scarlett. it was a bunch of things that came to recollection when i first joined here that came back to memory. it may look like anger, but deep inside i am not angry. i just get tired of trying to defend what i believe because i see people make it like what i believe is worthless, especially when i know there are so many that do not have the freedom I have. often i see that freedom i find in Christ being taken away from me. .

i know my freedom well & in many ways. i wish all the world had the freedom to choose without fear. when i look at the countries that are NOT EVEN allowed to look at a bible or even mention the name of Jesus, that is what crushes me & i cant stop it & that is what gets me angry. i cant change the past either & i cant stop people from doing what they want to do. some things, i wish i could stop & change, but I am not God to do that.

if you dont want to believe in Jesus in the bible, you have that God given right & you have that freedom to try & find what you are looking for.
maybe someday you will see that Jesus & the love of Christ is not so bad after all.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

{{{{{{Bandit}}}}}}

After reading many many of your posts I know that you do have respect for other religions.

peace,
lunamoth

thank you. i needed that today.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I told him that for a lot of ppl that believe they are in truth sure are hateful and have the tendancy to attack Christians who also believe they are in truth. The attacks usually revolve around Jesus Christ.. .

I think that Christianity is often 'attacked' in the society I live in, especially by the media and some very vocal critics. It's the biggest target and also, it can't be denied, that some people set themselves up as highly visible 'spokespeople' for Christianity when in fact they do not represent the majority, or even the average, Christian view. So these vocal few become the public face of Christianity and draw the fire to all of Christianity. But here at CR I do not see that happening to any large extent. Disagreement, holding different views and expressing them, is not the same as attacking. I do see some intolerance, by both Christians and non-Christians, for conservative or fundamentalist Christian views. Heck, most people here including the Christians don't put much stock in traditional mainstream Christian religions either!

(sorry for chopping up your post, just trying to address a couple specific points) ...which is informative in itself because we are told that we would be persecuted for His names sake. Because we believe in what Jesus taught we are to be held to a higher state of morality than others.. Its true though because look what happens.. If a Christian errs in the least bit it reflects poorly on all Christians because that one Christians mistake MUST mean that ALL Christians are less than perfect..

I've been thinking about this a bit lately, the idea that what some Christians do or do not do affects the reputation of all Christianity. It's just not realistic to think that Christians are going to be perfect and all be unified in their understanding or practice of Christianity. It's unfair, a fallacy I think, to lump everyone together and condemn or praise us all together. The Body of Christ, yes, that is perfect, but we individuals on our own are like Peter who denied and Thomas who doubted, and sometimes like Judas who betrayed...I think of this as the Christian Strawman. Take everything you hate about Christian behavior or ideology (or Muslim, or Jewish, or whatever), talk about it as if all these negatives are the essence of Christianity, and then say it represents all Christians or all Christians other than your group.

God forbid! hence the hypocracy judgements.. I also wonder if ppl assume because our God judges that we must also judge.. Sorry I judge noone. Who am I to judge.. Jesus shed His blood for me as well as everyone else.

It's already been said but I'll say it again, no one is saying that Christianity has cornered the market on hypocracy.

Faithful, I admire your passion and devotion.

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

...But I'd like to say in response to this post that Peter denied Jesus three times to save his life and in reward Peter is the rock in which Christendom was built on...

Peter denied Christ to save his own life, and in spite of that, Peter is the rock...for Peter remembered the words of Jesus and broke down, and acknowledged Christ, after the crow of the cocque (rooster). Then spent his life promoting the words of Christ, even unto his death. From coward to absolute fearlessness, was the life of Peter, and Jesus was the key influence...

Christianity is not a coward's faith, by any means. In fact it is one of the hardest faiths to follow. In fact it is so hard to follow that not many can. Oh, alot pay lip service, but when it comes down to brass tacks, many are early "Peter"...

Amazing that one of the simplest faiths are the most difficult to accept. Like diamonds, the simplest stones, yet the hardest to breach...

v/r

Q

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Peter denied Christ to save his own life, and in spite of that, Peter is the rock...for Peter remembered the words of Jesus and broke down, and acknowledged Christ, after the crow of the cocque (rooster). Then spent his life promoting the words of Christ, even unto his death. From coward to absolute fearlessness, was the life of Peter, and Jesus was the key influence...

and Peter was able to do that because he lived. The very thing that Jesus wanted and perhaps specifically intended.

Christianity is not a coward's faith, by any means. In fact it is one of the hardest faiths to follow. In fact it is so hard to follow that not many can. Oh, alot pay lip service, but when it comes down to brass tacks, many are early "Peter"...

and early "Peter" was as good a Peter as was later "Peter". Christianity is a simple faith of brotherhood and good works. Now you want to get into all the militant stuff then I suppose it can be quite difficult because everybody ain't into that. Though everybody ain't into brotherhood either.

Amazing that one of the simplest faiths are the most difficult to accept. Like diamonds, the simplest stones, yet the hardest to breach...

Diamonds are just as complex or simple as some other stones. And knowing that it is the hardest rock may make a diamond a bit more complex. However, you're talking about gems or you're talking about the core of people's souls. And while Christianity may be a gem, everyone doesn't value a diamond as the most prized gem. While diamonds can be an asset, I happen to appreciate sapphires more. Point is, ra ra for Christianity - it's always good to pump up your affiliation. But how are you going fulfill God's purpose by coming with the "mine is better than yours" tactic? That's why many Christians feel like everybody's coming down on Christianity so hard because they are always throwing rocks when their house is made out of glass. Jesus is good, nope better that, he is LORD - but there are some dangerous flaws within the understanding. And I believe the midst of the confusion lies after Acts. No one really disputes the Gospels. But the splits in the Body occur after Acts.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i just have one thought for you Dondi on this post, then i am done.

if they come to chop off your head or throw you into prison for believing in Christ & having a bible, which happens every single day on our little cozy planet of 'LOVE',
are you going to deny that Jesus is the Christ to save your life?

If I were in that situation, and believe me I thought about what I do in that case, I hope that my faith in God would enable me to be strong, or at the very least, God would give me the grace and peace to hold my faith in Jesus Christ should I be threatened with life or limb.

I have already cosigned myself to death. I've come to terms with death. Not that I have any suicidal bent toward death, but I have a peace of God of the sentence that lies with each and every one of us. I know the forgiveness and love of God in my heart, which includes peace that Jesus gives, not as the world gives. This is the love I am talking about. If everyone would just accept Gods love and love others, then this would be a "cozy planet".

But of course this is not the case. But I have the hope that someday it will be. In the meantime, I just want to share the love I've experienced from God to as many as God brings into my life (easier said than done, sometimes), but I alway am comforted by God's love, even if no one loves me back.

Christianity may well be the closest we get to the truth of God, IMO. No one is belittling the greatness of God in Jesus Christ. But I think God's arm reaches out farther than we think, that's all.

[truthseeker]

I appreciate that comment, Dondi. Comes a time when you will eventually stand for what is right for what ever reason. There are so many who have died for a cause that was world-changing - that others may live in some sort of peace. That is not everybody's purpose, but God has given some people their purpose and martyrdom is how the world result that purpose. We often know it when we take that purpose on. But as Quahom would probably agree, no war is fought without casualities and no victory is attained without bloodshed.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

and Peter was able to do that because he lived. The very thing that Jesus wanted and perhaps specifically intended.

and early "Peter" was as good a Peter as was later "Peter". Christianity is a simple faith of brotherhood and good works. Now you want to get into all the militant stuff then I suppose it can be quite difficult because everybody ain't into that. Though everybody ain't into brotherhood either.

Diamonds are just as complex or simple as some other stones. And knowing that it is the hardest rock may make a diamond a bit more complex. However, you're talking about gems or you're talking about the core of people's souls. And while Christianity may be a gem, everyone doesn't value a diamond as the most prized gem. While diamonds can be an asset, I happen to appreciate sapphires more. Point is, ra ra for Christianity - it's always good to pump up your affiliation. But how are you going fulfill God's purpose by coming with the "mine is better than yours" tactic? That's why many Christians feel like everybody's coming down on Christianity so hard because they are always throwing rocks when their house is made out of glass. Jesus is good, nope better that, he is LORD - but there are some dangerous flaws within the understanding. And I believe the midst of the confusion lies after Acts. No one really disputes the Gospels. But the splits in the Body occur after Acts.

Diamond is simply carbon compressed and heated to extreme values. Resulting in a very fine stone that looks pretty, can cut glass, or can drill through the core of the earth, and not melt or go dull. It can deflect a barrage of bullets, and if making into sheets were possible, would be excellent in deflecting radiation. It splits light into every color under the rainbow, or can be used in the reverse (collect every color and project pure white light).

That said, I'm not pumping up anything. I merely expressed an opinion that apparently you don't like. I personally do not care if one wishes to be Christian or not (I'm sure you've figured that out by now). But, I will express my opinion, also whether one likes it or not. And I opine that there is more anger in people's opinions of Christianity than there is logic.

As for my affiliation...well I don't often bring it up, since most here consider it a "cult" (lol), and lashing out at me is not very constructive, since I have more or less the constitution of a duck's ass.

Early Peter is a far cry from the Peter after the Holy Spirit touched and entered him...but then that would take some in depth reading to discover. Oh, he was the same boisterous character, but he was tempered and guided in his ways and words...and he never cowarded again.

Christianity is so much more than a brotherhood, alligned with good works. That is a POV from the outside looking in.

by the way...saphire is a diamond, just imperfect, just like an emerald and a ruby...hence the colors...

Christians are not perfect, they just keep trying...

Who is fuming at whom?

v/r

Q