Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT? - Page 3

citizenzen · 02-26-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Just to clarify, by miracle I am referring to Divine intervention, not just things that are improbable.

Even better.

People want to find reasons for events because the notion of randomness is too frightening.

People want to believe "Everything happens for a reason".

I am content with "Everything happens".

Azure24 · 02-26-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

People want to believe "Everything happens for a reason".

I am content with "Everything happens".

People want to believe...? You do believe in the Scriptures don't you? Otherwise why are you here?

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die ... a time to kill, and a time to heal..." (Ecc. 3:1-3).

I fact if anyone doesn't believe in the Scriptures why indeed are they even here?

Do you know Jesus performed even more miracles than you can ever know?

lunamoth · 02-26-2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure24

People want to believe...? You do believe in the Scriptures don't you? Otherwise why are you here?

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die ... a time to kill, and a time to heal..." (Ecc. 3:1-3).

I fact if anyone doesn't believe in the Scriptures why indeed are they even here?

Do you know Jesus performed even more miracles than you can ever know?

Now now, citizenzen has been quite polite. No need to badger him!

wil · 02-26-2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Why is this considered a miracle? Give one million people cancer and a few are bound to survive it even without medical intervention. Does that make them miracles or statistical outcomes?

I remember a news story a year or so ago where two window washers in New York fell about 50 stories. One lived, one died. Was it a miracle? Why was it a miracle for one but not the other?

No miracles necessary.

Again, my point there are no miracles and it is all a miracle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

That's a good point. That is why I asked about the virign birth, incarnation and resurrection.

Namaste Luna,

Ah divine intervention. We now know there is no virgin birth in the bible the words translated later to virgin referred to maiden and young woman...seems this will be argued forever. We know some deny the siblings of Jesus just to keep Mary a virgin forever, the fight goes on.

Divine intervention, the lord parted the red sea, big deal that it was and then brought the sea back and drowned the Egyptians... So we've got apologists fighting to whether it was an meteoroligical phenomena or a mistranslation and meant the reed sea and they just got stuck in the mud...what? I thought G!D seperated the seas miraculously...no it appears it was a story, but that doesn't stop the value of the metaphor to me.

We know we were at a time when there were many competing religions (like today) and we had to prove that our G!d was better than your G!D (like today) So our G!D is better than all your gods...you got Posiedon? We can part the waters, you got a virgin birth, we've got one too, you got healings, we got that, you got a resurection, we've got all that and more and three G!ds in one, and they can do it all...so there!

What if they came up with a religion that didn't have all the bells and whistles of the other...what would we write home to mom that we joined?

Yes, Thomas, all this from a Christian who is currently starting on another lenten journey...four readings and contemplations a day...and loving every word in the scripture. Today was Matt 5:1-16...I chose 'The Message' to read...it was like a brand new reading of the beatatudes...love the beginning...

Quote:

When Jesus saw his ministry drawing huge crowds, he climbed a hillside. Those who were apprenticed to him, the committed, climbed with him. Arriving at a quiet place, he sat down and taught his climbing companions. This is what he said:

Are we just following along and reading what was given and declaring it all truth...or are we committed, taking the higher path and sitting down and listening to the essence of our elder brother and wayshower?

and the end of the reading

Quote:

"Here's another way to put it: You're here to be light, bringing out the God-colors in the world. God is not a secret to be kept. We're going public with this, as public as a city on a hill. If I make you light-bearers, you don't think I'm going to hide you under a bucket, do you? I'm putting you on a light stand. Now that I've put you there on a hilltop, on a light stand—shine! Keep open house; be generous with your lives. By opening up to others, you'll prompt people to open up with God, this generous Father in heaven.

Yup The Message puts it in "Quotes" just like I did, just like the KJV, the NRSV, the NIV, the NKJV...shall I go on...are any of them really "quotes", no it is all conjecture as to what he really said or did.

citizenzen · 02-26-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure24

People want to believe...? You do believe in the Scriptures don't you? Otherwise why are you here?

No. No. Please feel free to badger me as much as you like.

And one more "no", I don't believe in the scriptures. Do you believe in the ancient Egyptian Gods? Of course you don't. They hold no meaning to you. Yet for thousands of years people felt as passionately for them as you do your God.

Well, the same way you can look at their religion and shake your head in dismay at their quaint, silly superstitions, I am able to look at your religion and see the exact same thing.

lunamoth · 02-26-2009, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Ah divine intervention. We now know there is no virgin birth in the bible the words translated later to virgin referred to maiden and young woman...seems this will be argued forever. We know some deny the siblings of Jesus just to keep Mary a virgin forever, the fight goes on.

I know what you are referring to (Isaiah), but I'm pretty sure both Matthew and Luke discuss the virgin birth of Jesus.

Faithfulservant · 02-26-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

No. No. Please feel free to badger me as much as you like.

And one more "no", I don't believe in the scriptures. Do you believe in the ancient Egyptian Gods? Of course you don't. They hold no meaning to you. Yet for thousands of years people felt as passionately for them as you do your God.

Well, the same way you can look at their religion and shake your head in dismay at their quaint, silly superstitions, I am able to look at your religion and see the exact same thing.

your avatar makes sense now. lol

Janz · 02-26-2009, 07:07 AM

I have had a really busy day but my mind was constantly thinking and while I was meditating and studying this afternoon, I had an epiphany..one of those moments of crystal clarity when everything makes sense and come together as an aw..ha! Too tired tonight to write out my moment of Divine Revelation and hopefully, I will remember it tomorrow...

Faithfulservant · 02-26-2009, 07:11 AM

well everyone knows what I believe... I believe it all.

Why? Because the bible tells me so.

Dondi · 02-26-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Sorry to intrude. I promise not to turn into a troll.

In order to determine whether they have a natural origin or not there must be some kind of investigation, either of the event itself or of evidence left over from the event.

There are plenty of people who do not believe that an old Earth is natural even though there is plenty of evidence in the form of fossils, geology, atomic decay, shifting magnetic fields, cosmology, etc.

So what evidence do you have of miracles?

which leads to the next question...

I agree, to constitute a miracle of Divine Intervention, there must be no other natural explanation. You typically are not going to see floating axe heads or people walking on water (unless it's ice). So basically, a miracle is a matter of elimination?

Quote:

Indeed, why are miracles so rare? They seemed to occur with great regularity just a few thousand years ago. One might explain that God is testing our faith, but the most logical explanation is that they never occurred in the first place.

What conditions changed that suddenly put an end to these miracles? I would suggest it was a greater understanding of the natural world. The more we understand, the fewer miracles manifest.

What is your explanation for that?

Another possibility is found in I Corinthians 1:22 when Paul said:

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a miraculous sign, He said:

"...An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." - Matthew 12:38-40

Maybe signs and wonders are primarily for the Jews. And when the Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered, signs and wonders on a wide scale ceased for a time.

Dondi · 02-26-2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Are they rare?

Have you read any books by MDs on healings that have occurred outside of their medical understanding? Or on autopsies that indicate cancer, heart disease that healed itself without medical intervention?

How about the Northern Lights, is that rare, does that make it a miracle? Of course it was at one time, so was the rainbow...rare, but when conditions are right normal...or is it G!d saying he'll never flood the earth again?

I've watched the arthritic walk, with miraculous healing, no, with natural healing. Accupunture, poo poo-ed (actual term) by science and medicine for years...miraculous or quackery? oops NIH now admits, insurance pays for, healing via chakras and meridians using a life force that can't be seen. Miraculous or Natural...what we don't understand we called miraculous...how quaint.

I concur with the medical evidence that there have been instances of cancer disappering, this has happened with a couple of members in my church, but it doesn't do much good for those who are going through the autopsy to have their cancer cured, does it?

Northern lights and rainbows can be explained by the refraction of the suns rays upon the earth's atmosphere and so forth, so there is really no miracle there.

wil · 02-26-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Northern lights and rainbows can be explained by the refraction of the suns rays upon the earth's atmosphere and so forth, so there is really no miracle there.

whoops...so you do discount G!d giving us the rainbow, as an indication that he will never flood the earth again...Noah is allegory, metaphor in your mind...I so often get bashed for picking and choosing...

and yes, the healing of the diseases found in the autopsy did benefit the patients...years, decades of life, prior to their eventual demise. Our current understanding about this plane is no one gets out alive. Unless of course you want to get into everlasting life...and then who cares about the autopsy?

citizenzen · 02-26-2009, 04:00 PM

Dondi is a rational man.

And a darn cute avatar.

Dondi · 02-26-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

whoops...so you do discount G!d giving us the rainbow, as an indication that he will never flood the earth again...Noah is allegory, metaphor in your mind...I so often get bashed for picking and choosing...

Just because there is a rainbow as a sign doesn't make it a miraculous sign, even metaphorically.

BTW, you've used the word metaphor several times now, one for Noah and one for the parting of the Red Sea. I am interested in what manner do you see these as metaphors. What meaning do they convey to you?

I don't see that I've bashed you. I know you take a non-literal approach position to much that is in scripture. Sometimes, though, you can be vague. Where do you draw the line between what is literal and what is not? Just on the miraculous issues? If it is miraculous does that make it irrational?

Quote:

and yes, the healing of the diseases found in the autopsy did benefit the patients...years, decades of life, prior to their eventual demise. Our current understanding about this plane is no one gets out alive. Unless of course you want to get into everlasting life...and then who cares about the autopsy?

Oh ok, I just misread you.

Yes, we are all on this plane bound to crash...no survivors.

lunamoth · 02-26-2009, 04:36 PM

Another thing I've noticed about the miracles of the Bible is that they occurred where God's presence was strongly revealed, esp in the person of Jesus Christ for example in the NT.

Two points made by others above worth note is that they are motivated by compassion (healing, feeding, comforting) and/or as signs which point to God's presence and will.